“HOW TO BAPTISE A MONSTER IN THE WOMB”.

Yesterday a reader asked the following question?

“WAS TAMPONAGE OR TAMPONOLOGY A STUDY SUBJECT IN MORAL THEOLOGY”?

If it was I never came across in when I did moral theology in St. John’s in Waterford.

But I was instructed in two other interesting topics by Monsignor John Shine.

monsignor-shine-oliver-march-19th-009
MONSIGNOR SHINE
  1. HOW TO BAPTISE A MONSTER IN THE WOMB.
  2. WHAT TO WHEN A FLY GETS INTO THE CHALICE AFTER THE CONSECRATION.

In older times babies in the womb who were malformed and not expected to survive were referred to as “monsters”. I think it was a reference to a very old belief that a malformed or disabled child was seen as a punishment from God.

Of course the RC Church would have still believed that such children had souls that had to be saved and those born dead could not be baptised and their souls would be “lost” in Limbo. And of course, at that time unbaptised babies could not be buried in consecrated grounds and were often buried on family land.

So, the think was that it was vital to get to them in the womb and baptise them while they still had life in them.

So trainee priests were taught how, with the help of midwives and doctors. to baptise such children in the womb!

The midwives or doctors would prepare a pipette  with a long spout and fill it with sterilized water which the priest would make into holy water.

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Then with the medics help the pipette would be inserted into the woman’s womb and the priest would squeeze the water over the baby and pronounce the words of baptism.

This meant that the baby was saved and prevented from being sent to Limbo.

It could also then receive a church funeral and buried in a Catholic graveyard.

THE FLY IN THE CHALICE:

The other topic that we were lectured on was what to do if a fly got into the chalice at Mass after the consecration.

The problem was that after the consecration we Catholics believe that the wine has become the Precious Blood and we have a responsibility to let nothing untoward to happen.

So the instruction was:

Take the fly out of the chalice and squeeze it into an altar cloth called a corporal. 

After the Mass was over you had to burn the fly.

Then you had to wash the cloth and drink the water you had washed it in.

 

It all goes to show that there were some very strange preoccupations within the Roman Catholic church in the past.

 

 

44 thoughts on ““HOW TO BAPTISE A MONSTER IN THE WOMB”.

  1. Absolute rubbish about drinking the water you had washed the corporal in. You pour that down the sacrarium or pour it somewhere it won’t be trampled underfoot. Not much news these days, eh Pat? Scraping the bottom of the hate barrel, are ye? No doubt you’ll get a refill of better poison soon.

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    1. Thanks Priest. So obvious.

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  2. The truth is that the RC church substitutes the role of the Holy Spirit with the role of the priest.
    The Spirit will save what ought to be saved. Man (priest or otherwise) may only direct people towards God the Father, God the Son and The Holy Spirit.

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    1. That’s exactly what the priest does “Neil O’Donal” when what the Church believed is properly understood – directs people to God.

      The priest is certainly no substitute for the Holy Spirit; but there is always the danger – in any denomination – not just the Catholic Church – that the minister becomes the focus; and he allows this happen and “enjoys” it when it happens.

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      1. This is not a danger within the Catholic Church. It is the Church’s modus operandi. My own director of formation used to lament a time when the laity would ‘tip their hat’ to the priest.

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  3. More crazy, bizarre, crappy blogging. Utterly inane. Utterly stupid. I was trained the same era as you Buckley and I was never taught such nonsense. Never heard anything of the kind. Some mother’s often came to me to ask for a blessing before giving birth or to be assured of the sanctity of their child in the womb if they received a life threatening diagnosis while pregnant and that was all I ever did – pray and bless as requested. If you truly believed in the holiness and sanctity of the Body and Blood of heist, you would naturally be very, very careful, respectful and reverent in approach and celebration both with the Sacred Host and Precious Blood. Common sense and natural, sensible care.

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    1. Did you study under Monsignor Shine in Waterford?

      I think his lectures were based on the lectures of Monsignor Cremin of Maynooth.

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    2. Well, even if you didn’t hear the same things as + Pat in your seminary (perhaps it was more enlightened !!), it is a fact that the Church has peddled such idiotic nonsense over the centuries, and I would not be surprised if some seminary priest had spent a life time worrying about how to baptise a baby in the womb.

      The utter twee shiite that we were fed and expected to believe is unbelievable. And we sat there and sucked it up because we were assured that when the Church spoke, it spoke as if from God himself. And so we believed what we were told. Some of it was sensible and believable, but so much was utter nonsense. That was the hold that the Church and its priests had over us.

      And, boy, did they love the power they had ! No one could gainsay them, they had an arsenal of threats to make you succumb. And then so many of them thought that they could do what they wanted to do, because no-one would dare to say anything, and even if they did no-one would believe them, and even then they knew they had top cover from the bishops who would chose to make the problem go away rather than confront it and bring about scandal. So their private scandal carried on, so that public scandal was avoided. All of this, by any interpretation, was egregiously sinful.

      What is wonderful about the present age is that we now know what the Church was doing, and we are able to decide whether we give them a voice or not. It is not they who tell us anymore, it is we who can ask them what their perspective is, and then take it or leave it. The balance of authority, power, influence has changed. No longer will lay people be dictated to in such an arbitrary and absolute way. The Church has a place and a voice, but we will decide whether it has legitimacy or credibility. At the moment it does not. Idiot bishops who sound off about something expecting us to listen reverently and respectfully have not kept up with developments. They need to smell the coffee and wake up.

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      1. Now there’s an honest, enlightened, and truthful post.
        Inarguably expressed.

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    3. Thank God you weren’t ordained you gobshite.

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  4. Taking the care to baptise a baby in its mother’s womb with a pipette wins hands down over vacuum suctioning it out or dissecting it and removing it piece by piece right up to 9 months as enlightened Ireland is now to do. Apparently, abortionists recommend firstly severing the vocal chords of full term babies – so the mother doesn’t hear them cry. So much for disabled rights.

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    1. You are absolutely right about the horror of abortion. It is always a moral wrong when a life is terminated. Although, even the Catholic Church accepts that there are occasions when the intention is to do the lesser evil and then a termination / abortion could be legitimate.
      However, think on this. In the recent Ireland abortion referendum, it was clear that the voice of the Catholic Church was discredited and discounted, not about the substance of the issue itself (indeed, they had some very legitimate arguments) but because of the lack of credibility and integrity that the Church and its voices had following decades of revelations about the behaviour of priests and bishops, not least in respect of child abuse. It is quite reasonable to think that the Church and its priests and bishops, by losing any credibility, have only themselves to blame because of their manifest duplicity and lack of integrity in the past. Why would people listen to them ? So, let the priests and bishops blame themselves for the outcome of the referendum – they have a great deal of responsibility for its outcome by their failures and sins that facilitated the outcome. Let them examine their own consciences and minds, rather than berating the Irish people. They have a great deal to answer for. They have squandered any credibility and integrity that they had. And brought about great social and moral damage as a result. Including facilitating the outcome of the referendum. Let them hang their heads in shame.

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      1. Are you seriously proposing that thinking adults vote to allow the murder of innocent babies out of spite to get back at clergy? Then we really do have a problem!!!! I find a remarkable inability to become informed and make independent judgements. Church influence over the Irish may have greatly waned but to a large extent it has been replaced by the Dublin 4 media crowd and an immature need of people to show how “progressive” they are. There is a tremendous ignorance and shallowness in the country today.
        The shame of the Irish clergy is surely theirs, but Irish adults are entirely responsible for their individual votes for abortion. Adults can’t get out of it by a game of, “you made me do it.”
        As for the Church permitting abortion – it is rather that the life of the mother is saved, and if the life of the child is lost as a consequence then that is an unintended consequence.
        Today’s Irish are like young teenagers let off the loose. They want to ape their former occupiers.

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      2. Hello Bernie

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  5. You call those bizarre practices ‘strange preoccupations’; I call them ‘neurotic superstitious rituals’, issuing from the core of Roman Catholicism: fear rather joy in the hope (not certainty!) of personal redemption in Christ.
    Roman Catholicism has, traditionally and primarily, been a faith based on fear, control, and superstition. And this all originated in deeply flawed perceptions of Christ as king, wrathful judge, and eternal avenger.
    No wonder its entire system of clerial formation and ministry is so f***** up, the fruit of it increasingly visible, almost by the day, and nearly all bad.

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    1. MournemanMichael 11th Jan 2019 — 10:42 am

      Well said comment Magna. I think that much of the RC practices are indeed superstitious rituals, just like other religion’ practices worldwide. Humankind’s engagement in communal rituals seems an evolved social/psychological phenomena engendering cohesion and a sense of belonging. Therein and solely lies their efficacy, and on which religion piggy-backs.
      As for being efficacious in terms of interacting with a god or gods: utter nonsense!
      MMM

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      1. 10. 42: MMM – the enlightened one has pronounced again. What an arrant piece of smug arrogance you’ve written, supporting an even smugger, more arrogant learned one, Magna!! If only the pair of you would actually say and do something useful and meaningful we’d have a fabulous country and an even better Church! These sideline critics – give us a break…

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  6. Fly on Th Wall 11th Jan 2019 — 8:52 am

    Ya sure it’s not camponology. That rings a few bells hi. Sure I believed some quare schtuff meself in the past hi

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    1. Campanology in standard English.

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  7. Have you nothing better to do with your time than scripting this utter piece of nonsense. Lazy, bizarre, silly, immature piece of writing. 0 out of 10 is what I’d mark you. Piece of sheer stupidity.

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    1. Thanks Priest.

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  8. Truly a religion based on fear and brainwashing. They had us in the palms of their hands and they wrung us out to dry until there was nothing left. Even then they tried to keep us in fear. They terrified us for years. Funny how the blinkers were washed away from our eyes and we are able to see them for what they are. A gang of nobodys, of incompetent and useless deceivers who would love us to put our blinkers back on and obey their every word having us believe that they speak for God himself and as such they could do whatever they wanted – beat us, abuse is, rob us and justify it as it was all for our own good. Oh how foolish and afraid we were. Their Mumbo jumbo doesn’t wash with us anymore. Now who is experiencing wrath. Not us. Them. They are paying the price for their crimes against humanity. The word of God never ages and is as relevant today as it always has been. Why then are their church numbers dwindling, their collections falling? Because people are realising that when it comes to God, this bunch of has beens are irrelevant and corrupt. They are simply a business based on power and greed. How the mighty have fallen and they will fall even further before they come clean. It’s sad to see grown men hold on to lies. Pope Pinocchio needs to let the true spirit of Christ enter his heart. Confess and repent of the sins of his church so that Christ’s message is heard loudly and clearly.

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  9. Irrespective of the contents of the blog today which, personally I never experienced in my 40 years as a priest. The content of the theology, ecclesiology, spirituality and philosophy I received never inculcated a ‘power’ based approach to ministry. I understand how some may have sought to wield power, not service, by being an ordained minister. Perhaps it was my upbringing where we were taught by our parents that kindness, truth, generosity, respect for others, a sense of justice and real Christian living was the way to live. Tough at times but now I appreciate those lessons. No priest or Bishop can ever arrogantly act as if he was totally above others. We cannot assume we are right, that we know it all, that we deserve respect. I remember some desperately cross priests from my childhood and teenage years but I also was inspired by many good religious and local priests. It is increasingly difficult to earn credibility and respect because of the legacy of the past. The approach I now take is to ensure I work as conscientiously as possible, giving my time onky to the Parish I work in. The blocks which hold up the present church are crumbling quickly. With God’s spirit maybe a new house acceptable to him will rise.

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  10. Honestly these modern priests are weak as water!
    A mediaeval manual instructs the priest to swallow the fly and gives instructions of a mouse eats the host:
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/drlauravarnam.wordpress.com/2015/10/05/what-to-do-if-a-spider-falls-in-the-communion-wine-and-other-top-tips-from-john-mirk-part-i/amp/

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    1. Jesus is sacramentally present in the Eucharist. The operative word is sacramentally. When the bread is broken only the sign (sacramentum) is separated into pieces and not the thing signified (res). Similarly with the wine and the fly. Only the sign is drunk by the insect and not the body and blood of the Lord. So both the medieval source and you (1:04) have nothing to worry about.

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      1. MournemanMichael 12th Jan 2019 — 12:19 am

        I have to ask Anon @ 10:59: Do you really believe this coddswallop? Frankly, if you do, it only demonstrates to me the brainwashing ability of the RC formation proçesses. Having left it myself, albeit 50+ years ago, I understand it’s pervasive intrusions into naive impressionable minds, and their subsequent inability to leave aside such nonsense.
        MMM

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      2. MMM 12.19.
        My aim was to demonstrate that scholastic philosophy (and theology indeed) when properly understood does not require any mental gymnastics to deal with the issue of an insect or an animal eating or drinking the consecrated elements. Both the poster at 1.04 and the medieval source quoted misunderstand elementary scholastic concepts. It’s a non-issue.

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      3. MournemanMichael 13th Jan 2019 — 2:53 am

        Whatever your aim Anon @ 10:59, nothing in your comment makes the least bit of sense!
        It adds nothing to explaining the basis of the mumbo-jumbo hogswallop of the RC church belief that some formulaic recitation of an “ontologically” ordained/designated RC cleric, in some mysterious manner, “changes” bread/wine into the “body and blood” of an all powerful, eternal creator who deigned to inhabit this insignificant planet earth 2000+ years ago for 30 years before embarking on rescuing we humans for the ‘great sin’ of one of our ancestors scrumping an apple! [Or whatever interpretation biblical scholars may regard this as an analogy].
        Orthodox catholic belief requires us to believe that all of this is unquestionably true/gospel,……… ‘cos a collection of controversial, authentically debatable, often contradictory, and questionably selective middle eastern ancient texts is provided as a Gospel foundation and evidence for this religious belief.
        Really when you objectively examine the basis for RC religious beliefs, and subject them to reality perspectives their whole farrago, like the alleged walls of Jericho, prove utterly unconvincing and without foundation despite their superficially reassuring/enticing promulgation by the self serving RC church establishment.
        MMM

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  11. 12:38. I have read and reread your comments and I do not doubt your sincerity. But I cannot understand why you remain in a church that by your own implication is unacceptable to God. I too hope that the blocks which are crumbling of this institution give way and soon

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    1. Words fail me!

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    2. 1.14: I often ask myself why I remain as a priest in the Church. Because I am forced by circumstances and the crisis in the Church to constantly reassess my life and my role I manage to find meaning in the moments of being with people in the ups and downs of their lives, in the knowledge that I have something worthwhile to offer. I witness the “Real Church, the true People of God” in the everyday interaction with parishioners. I keep focused on what I believe I am called to do and try not to be too cynical or overwhelmed by the crises within the Church. I can give up, leave, do nothing or stay and focus on the essentials of being/living Christ, which, while difficult, is my priority. I abhor the wrongs, sins and crimes of the Church. I made a choice to remain and build a new “building/community” in the Parish where I work. I can only (try) make my life acceptable to God.

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  12. Pat, I’ve been reading “The Irish College, Rome, and Its World. Edited by Dáire Keogh and Albert McDonnell, published 2008.
    The most startling statements are made in the chapter on the college and Vatican II. Michael Smith, the former bishop of Meath, who was a student during this period, offers some very frank insights into the Irish hierarchy of the time. He states that the Irish bishops did not expect the Council to last long nor make any impact on the life of the Church, said very little at the Council itself and did not try to communicate what was happening, did not seek briefings from theologians nor from other bishops, had a minimal relationship with the Irish journalists assigned to the Council, and only encountered their fellow Irish-born bishops at a dinner toward the end of the Council.

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  13. 5.21: That’s a long and well established fact. Nothing new but it sheds light on the provincialism and blindness of the Irish Episcopacy. Had even some of the radical vision of Vatican 11 taken hold, I believe we would have a greater “lay” led Church. We had far too many clerics and religious who literally ran and organised everything in the Church, fearful of letting go of certain responsibilities. The aggregate result of decades of holding on to power and status has deprived the Church of some visionary, skilled, imaginative and committed lay people. Yes, there are many good, visible and highly skilled lay people in our Church and parish communities but we’re just keeping a show of some kind on the road and floundering around with bits and pieces of a vision. The Church of old is dying – and must die – but we’re not sure yet what’s emerging out of this death. Approaching springtime I hope and pray we can respond appropriately to the spiritual hunger in people and offer anew the life of Christ and his gospel.

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  14. MournemanMichael 11th Jan 2019 — 7:55 pm

    Anon@ 6:35: You could save yourself some energy by simply saying you disagree with my perspective. You’re perfectly entitled to. Better still would be to offer an alternative contrary viewpoint rather than an ad hominem snort.
    MMM

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    1. 7.55: MMM – you are quite superlative at snorty responses yourself! You have no difficulty with your condescending remarks!!

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  15. 4:51. I wish you well

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  16. Hi Armagh Grandfather… You haven’t gone away have you? Don’t leave the stage just yet with your mythical dream story!

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    1. Grandpappy has been busy all day as it’s laundry day and he’s washing the grandsons’ jocks – not a pleasant task because they’re all terrible scruffs.

      Tonight he’s away to the greyhounds for a bit of a auld flutter and a few jars – not too many or Grandmaw will get the rolling pin out!

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  17. Pat, keep up your humour, it makes for great reading. Its a great testimony to your colourful life led by the spirit of Jesus. Thankyou for your ministry and keep up the excellent work brother

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  18. How’s poor David Dyksy?

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  19. Do a cartwheel, Bp Pat, for some comic relief.

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  20. Pat Mullaney had for til baptise one of them monsters in the way you described and called it Fanny and it put her off her Cafe Bum Bums for a few days but she was back this morning and wasn’t there a fly in her skinny latte!

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    1. MournemanMichael 12th Jan 2019 — 3:05 am

      I seldom reply like this: but what a stupid, nonsensical inconsequential comment!!

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  21. Bp Pat, do you think +Amy has squeezed many a pipette? I wonder.

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