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WESTMINISTER FINANCIAL SCANDAL!

By Ed Condon Catholic News Agency

London, England, Nov 19, 2019 / 02:35 pm (CNA).- Developers acting for the Vatican Secretariat of State offered to raze a London parish hall and rectory and replace it with low-cost housing, in order to try to push through a luxury apartment development.

The luxury development project involves two recently suspended Vatican employees, and a nest of Vatican-controlled holding companies led by an architect linked to accusations of money laundering and fraud involving Vatican accounts.

In a June 2016 proposal submitted to local authorities in the Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, a developer seeking permission to develop luxury apartments at 60 Sloane Ave offered London’s St. Pius X parish hall and rectory as a location for building the low-income housing required by law to offset the luxury development.

The inclusion of the parish property in the planning application was facilitated by officials at the Vatican Secretariat of State, who visited the parish and worked with the local Archdiocese of Westminster to secure the cooperation of the parish pastor.

The involvement of the Vatican in developing the proposal comes to light after Cardinal Angelo Becciu, who authorized the Vatican’s investment, described the Holy See’s involvement in the real estate development as a matter of ordinary business, denying there was anything suspicious about the transaction.

Becciu

“It is accepted practice for the Holy See to invest in property, it has always done so: in Rome, in Paris, in Switzerland and also in London,” Becciu said in October, insisting that the deal was “regular and registered according to law.”

The planning application was submitted on behalf of 60 SA Ltd., a private holding company registered in Jersey, a tax shelter in the Channel Islands, which owns the building and in which the Vatican had invested $200 million in borrowed money.

The parish property was that of St. Pius X parish in London’s Notting Hill neighborhood.

Fr. Peter Wilson, pastor of St. Pius X, said officials from the Archdiocese of Westminster visited his parish before the proposal was submitted, along with an unnamed official from the Holy See, who outlined plans for the property, which would have incorporated substantial low-income housing units into a new mixed use development.

Fr. Wilson

“I knew that there was somebody from the Holy See coming along, whom I met, but I didn’t know why he was involved,” Wilson said. “The wider provenance of the plan was never vouchsafed to me.”

“They were going to knock down the presbytery and build a block of flats here. They told me I could have one flat in the block of flats and my heart rather sank, but who am I to argue with those above my station?”

The low-income housing proposal was turned down by London development authorities, who said it was haphazard, and noted there is no shortage of low income housing in the area of the parish, several miles from the luxury development. The developers eventually offered local authorities £12 million in lieu of the affordable housing requirement, in order for the luxury development to be approved.

The parish proposal suggests the involvement of Vatican officials in the development project was considerably more expansive than initially reported, as Church officials were a part of the development’s early planning details, rather than simply passive investors.

A spokesperson for the Archdiocese of Westminster told CNA it “is often approached by developers or boroughs to take proceeds of the infrastructure levy or help with their social housing quota. Diocesan officers always review these proposals to see whether they offer long term benefits to the community and the mission of the Church.”

Regarding the proposal for St. Pius X, the archdiocese said that “In this instance, the developer, CapInvest, approached us in 2014 with such an offer. 79 St Charles Square was identified as a possible location for redevelopment, providing both accommodation for the parish clergy and a number of much-needed social housing units in the area. We agreed to meet with the developer to commence discussions.”

WRM CapInvest is an investment company owned by Raffaele Mincione, who owned the Chelsea building through a holding company, 60 SA Ltd. Mincione sold a share in the holding company, and eventually the entire thing, to the Secretariat of State. Another of Mincione’s companies, Athena Capital, a Luxembourg investment fund, acted as the vehicle for the Vatican’s investment.

“At no time did the developer disclose any connection between this project and the Holy See. Equally, no one from the Holy See contacted the Diocese about this project. We only became aware of this possible connection when [CNA] contacted [the archdiocese].”

Fr. Wilson told CNA it was a Vatican official who presented the plan to him, alongside archdiocesan officers.

He added that the idea was presented as beyond his power to prevent, despite canonical norms that ensure decisions about parish property are the purview of the pastor, not the Holy See or the local bishop.

The London property investment points to a network unsavory financial actors and unseemly practices involved in the Vatican’s London investment, even amid repeated efforts to bring financial practices into line with international practices and standards.

CNA has reported that the London investment was funded by a $200 million short-term loan arranged through Swiss banks, along with a nearly $50 million 2018 investment in the same property, bringing it completely under Vatican ownership. Rather than buying the building outright from 60 SA Ltd., Mincione’s holding company, the Secretariat of State instead took that company over in 2018, setting up a new London company to control the investment.

According to the Financial Times, Mincione sold his personal stake in the property to the Vatican at “a significantly higher price than he had paid for it two years earlier.”

Last month, Cardinal Pietro Parolin, Vatican Secretary of State, said the investment was unique in some ways, and that the fund in question appeared to be “well managed.” He said that he was working to clear up questions about the project.

Parolin

“We are working to clear up everything. This deal was rather opaque and now we are trying to clear it up,” Parolin said.

Also last month, former sostituto at the Secretariat of State Cardinal Angelo Becciu strongly denied any impropriety in the deal, responding to what he called “slanderous charges” that he had “played with and tampered with the money of the poor” in the 2014 transaction, the cardinal defended the investment last month, saying it was “accepted practice.”

The London property investment is believed to be at the center of an ongoing investigation by Vatican prosecutors who, in October, raided the offices of the Secretariat of State and the Vatican’s own financial watchdog.

Msgr. Carlino

Carolin

Among those suspended following the raids was Msgr. Mauro Carlino, an official at the Secretariat of State. Carlino was listed in May, 2019, as a director of a company called “London 60 SA Ltd.,” the holding company incorporated in the United Kingdom, through which the Secretariat of State controls the Jersey-based 60 SA Ltd., which in turn owns the property on Sloane Ave.

The UK’s registrar of companies lists the Holy See Secretariat of State as the single shareholder and legal person with “significant control” of the London company, and the right to appoint and remove directors. Public records show Carlino was terminated as a director in August, 2019, two months before the Vatican raid.

Luciano Capaldo

Capoldo

Among the other registered directors of London 60 SA Ltd. is Mr. Luciano Capaldo, an architect. According to his resumé Capaldo specializes in “real estate valuation” and “project-property design and management.”

In filings officially approved by the Secretariat of State concerning his initial appointment as a director for London 60 SA Ltd. in May 2019, Capaldo was identified as a “Vatican citizen.” A subsequent filing changed Capaldo’s nationality of record to British and Italian.

According to British corporate filing requirements, only an agent of the Secretariat of State or the first officer of the holding company could file a document appointing Capaldo as a director.

In practice this means only Parolin, Becciu, or Dr. Caterina Sansone, who was the company’s sole officer at the time of Capaldo’s appointment, would have filed the legal appointment that listed Capaldo as a Vatican citizen.

Sansone was among the Vatican employees suspended in the October raid of the Secretariat of State by Vatican prosecutors.

It is not clear whether the document listing Capaldo as a Vatican citizen was in error, or whether the architect had in fact been granted a Vatican passport, but Capaldo himself was required to countersign the document identifying him as a citizen of the Vatican.

Citizenship of the Vatican City State is sometimes afforded to lay employees working in the curia, but is only granted to those living within the territory of Vatican City itself, and forfeited upon departure. Vatican citizenship has also sometimes been granted to lay people as a personal favor by curial officials, because it confers several benefits, and the Vatican does not assess an income tax.

The Secretariat of State issues a small number of passports for travel in the name of the Holy See, reserved to clerics engaged on diplomatic service for the Holy See and carrying with them diplomatic immunity.

It is unclear what, if any, role Capaldo has in curial service, or why he might have been granted citizenship by the Secretariat of State if his job is to run a property investment in London.

Vatican citizenship could carry with it the benefit of access to banking privileges either of the Holy See’s two financial institutions, the IOR, which functions as a deposit bank, and APSA, which acts as the Vatican’s reserve bank and sovereign wealth fund. Such funds have been used in the past by private individuals seeking to skirt international banking regulations and external scrutiny of business deals.

According to the terms of an agreement reached with Moneyval, the Council of Europe’s anti-money laundering watchdog, following a 2012 on-site inspection, exempting it from future inspections, APSA was required to close a number of accounts held for private individuals, including senior churchmen and Vatican citizens. Senior sources at APSA and the Vatican’s Prefecture for the Economy told CNA that several of these accounts are still in operation but had been anonymized following the Moneyval agreement.

“Essentially, named accounts became private numbered accounts,” one senior official told CNA. “Looking at the account ledgers, there is no way to tell the difference between an individual or institution as the account holder, it’s just a number.”

“They were supposed to all be closed down, and some of them were. But no one is being made to do anything – some of the accounts are still very much on the books.”

Imvest

Though apparently living in London, Capaldo is a major shareholder and former chairman of an Italian real estate company called Imvest, which describes its business as “buying and selling real estates, as well as managing the construction of buildings, blocks and lots mainly for individual clients” and “facility management and services of territories and properties for tenants, private clients and public institutions.”

Among the company’s principal shareholders is a private, family-owned Italian bank named Banca Finnat Euroamerica S.p.A., which is controlled by the Nattino family.

Nattino

In 2017, Italian financial authorities froze 2.5 million euros is assets belonging to Giampiero Nattino, who was then the bank’s chairman, saying that he had used personal accounts held at both IOR and APSA to commit a string of offences, including market manipulation, and had provided false information to Italian financial authorities.

In 2017, Italian police said Nattino had used Vatican accounts to carry out “a complex stock operation which resulted in criminal behaviour regarding market manipulation,” despite the 2012 directive to APSA to close such accounts.

The police action followed a 2011 investigation by Vatican authorities into Nattino. At that time, investigators identified Nattio as the owner of a portfolio of accounts at APSA which they suspected were used for money laundering and market manipulation.

Authorities questioned why he had banking privileges at APSA at all.
The balance of Nattino’s accounts, some 2 million euros, was transferred to Switzerland shortly before the 2012 regulations were due to come into force.

The Vatican investigation noted the “dubious origin and dubious final destination of the funds in the closing of” Nattino’s portfolio.

Another large stakeholder in Caldo’s company Imvest is FEG International Assets SA, an anonymously incorporated company in Luxembourg formerly run by Gianluigi Torzi.

FEG and Torzi were named recently in a commercial fraud suit in London’s High Court. Also named as respondents in the suit were Giancarlo Andreella and his former company, Odikon Services PLC, of which Torzi was also a director. Odikon, formerly known as Beaumont Investment Services PLC, it is currently suspended by the UK’s Financial Conduct Authority. Capaldo served as a director of Odikon Services until November 2018.

Imvest’s largest shareholder is Meti Capital, of which Capaldo also a part owner. Meti Capital’s largest owner (48% stake) is Yield Corporate Advisor Ltd., incorporated in Malta and owned by Andreella. Another major shareholder in Meti is Beaumont Investment/Odikon Services.

Imvest was raided by Italian authorities in May 2018 and several directors indicted on charges of preparation and submission of false budgets. Among those indicted was Alfio Marchini, a Roman real estate entrepreneur, and twice-failed candidate for Mayor of Rome for the 5 Star Party. That trial is pending.

PAT SAYS

There was poor Father Wilson minding his own business when the above rogues gallery came knocking on his door.

They wanted to knock down his house and build housing for those on low income and the Father himself would be given an apartment on the spot!

And then it all became clear.

Father Wilson and his parish were to be sacrificed as a sacrificial offering so that the Vatican and its friends could make mega bucks on a massive wealthy development in posher London.

Was Vin Elsie Nichols in on this?

Did Cardinal Brown Toast and Scrambled Eggs Wrag give permission?

And what about the St Pius X parishioners think about it all as those who paid for the parish property and its upkeep?

You see folks, this is how it works.

The RCC Corp pretends it’s all about saving souls.

But it’s really all about vast sums of money and property and the sharing of this money between the Vatican and its rogue friends.

They’ve had their claws on your children up to now.

And now they are coming after your parishes.

And of course the good priests will call them out and stand up to them.

Yeah 😈

69 replies on “WESTMINISTER FINANCIAL SCANDAL!”

I probably will. I always mark that day. And it is also the anniversary of the death of a hero of mine – Brother Charles de Foucauld.

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6.93: You’re still living in a house bell gong to another entity. Don’t moralise about other people’s property. You’ve had you financial crisis too. the firmer Church you used in Larne – what happened?

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I’m living in a house in a way that the Belfast High Court approves.

Bit different I think from global corruption?

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@anon 12.17

Since Pat did nothing to justify his removal from ministry by Cathal Daly the diocese is morally obliged to house it’s priest. Indeed even the demonic Canon law states such.

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I told CD that I could not force him to retain me in ministry but I had a moral right to a roof over my head.

After time, that led to a legal right to reside where I do.

CD had the option to evict me.

He did not choose that route. Why?

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There’s more than one thing odd about this.
Westminster Diocese is a Registered Charity – see https://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=233699&subid=0 and the associated webpages.
The objectives of the charity are THE ADVANCEMENT OR MAINTENANCE OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC DIOCESE OF WESTMINSTER.
I can’t see the Beneficial Owner stated anywhere there but I ‘d have thought,from other things that I’ve read over the years that it was the Catholic Community living within the boundaries of the diocese.
But if the real owners are the Vatican that’s another matter.
I’m only ten weeks away from turning eighty but perhaps someone younger could seek clarification on this from the Charity Commission.

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“Already sentenced to six months in prison suspended for non-denunciation of aggression against a minor, in the context of the Preynat case, before a judgment on appeal on November 28, Cardinal Barbarin is now accused of harassment by a former seminarian.

In a lengthy survey published on Wednesday by L’Obs, Benoît Quettier, former seminarian in Lyon, tells how Cardinal Philippe Barbarin first took him under his wing before doing everything to remove him from the Church. not to make him fall into depression.

These accusations are denied by the lawyers of Cardinal Philippe Barbarin, in a statement sent to AFP on Wednesday. My André Soulier and Jean-Félix Luciani “regret” the publication of this investigation of the Obs, which they deem “uncomfortable”.

“It was moral but also sexual harassment”
For his part, Benoît Quettier’s lawyer wrote a 12-page memoir that was sent to the Independent Commission on Sexual Abuse in the Church (Ciase), created a year ago. In December 2006, the young man integrates with his brother Romain seminary Saint-Irénée. They are both quickly spotted by the cardinal, who regularly invites Benoît Quettier home.

Invited at night by the cardinal, the latter asks him questions “of a sexual nature” and regularly discusses the subject of homosexuality. According to the former seminarian, many priests and seminary masters gave him advances. “But I was straight, that was the problem, and that’s why I was fired,” he says today.

He is waiting for an apology
Relationships then deteriorated over the years. “The cardinal and his relatives organized constant harassment against Benedict, humiliated and punished him thoroughly, and then his ordination was deferred so that he could order me first and then fire him,” his brother said.

“Barbarin justified my dismissal by explaining that I was homosexual, and triggered my decision to produce a recourse to the tribunal,” Benoît adds.

Now married, Benoît Quettier says he is ready to turn the page, aware that the case will probably never be tried because prescribed. “I would just like him to apologize for what he did to me, not publicly, but in private,” says the ex-seminarian. “It was not only moral harassment, but also sexual harassment,” he adds.”

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Well, this is all par for the course. It’s already been demonstrated that Barbarin is unfit for his office, though – let’s face it – that applies to most of them. Everywhere you look homosexuality is the heart of the matter not per se but because the Church has decided to wage war against the rest of the human race over a question which has been decided by everybody else as unexceptional and perfectly normative.

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This sounds very familiar and resonates with other cases reported on this blog. Cif. Maynooth, Oscott, Wonersh. in the recent past and other seminaries throughout the world. Seminarians being groomed by homosexual predators and being ousted if they resist.
There seems to be a virus of perversion spreading through the church! Too many, for too long, have turned a blind eye. Too many hierarchy are impotent to act because of their own past indiscretions or their own homosexuality. Too many safeguarding officers have been bullied in to burying the truth.
This is a self fulfilling death sentence on straight men fulfilling a vocation. This is an unholy, out of control, accelerating trend that is undermining the credibility of the Church. Unless this trend is reversed the outcome is unthinkable.

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Why doesn’t Else sell off the Allen Hall Seminary just off the Kings Road in Chelsea instead. He would make an absolute fortune for that site. Nearby apartments sell for a minimum £1million each. Perhaps it’s too much historical connections with the site being on St Thomas More’s former home. You would be amazed at how much property the Vatican actually owns in London.

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I once knew a member of the Preston Jesuit community. He did not like the atmosphere in that community.

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There have been issues regarding the school which the Jesuits used to run in Preston. All the usual Catholic stuff, viz. sex and violence.

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Also religious orders on their last legs own or have sold off prime real estate, but does anyone know what happens to those assets? There is no accountability but the faithful are tapped for cash to support say retired priests. As Father Jack Hackett would say ….

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Developers would also love to get their hands on the convent and extensive grounds of the Carmel in Notting Hill. As for Allen Hall, I don’t see why it and Wonersh should not be closed and training concentrated in Oscott for the whole of E & W. That assumes of course that any seminary is fit for purpose, which rather begs the question.

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You could be right @1:20 but now Ushaw has gone and before that Upholland, the location and space of Oscott, as well as its history make it more appropriate were there to be one seminary for E & W. I don’t see the point of the Beda anymore either, despite distinguished alumni such as Monty. The VEC is probably regarded as untouchable and could continue as a finishing school. If numbers are up at Elsie’s place, I wonder how many are ex Anglicans getting a quick fix before they go off to carry on exactly as they were before in London parishes.

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After the Russians and Arabs, the Holy See must own the biggest portfolio of properties in all the affluent postcodes within London. SW1, SW2, SW3 and so forth.

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Said it before Pat and I’ll say it again and the more that comes out the truer and more obvious it is.
‘What a dirty, sordid lot!!’
What is an organisation who’s foundations are SUPPOSED to be rooted in humility and love of the poor doing mixed up in shite like this.
Poor Fr Des Wilson seen the whole political sham for what it was, called it out and then by his witness and lifestyle live out the Masters teaching. He was clearly the gospel lived.

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If high demand movements are “archdiocesan itineraries of deformation”, and senior operatives (based in two specific neighbourhoods of Greater London) of said archdiocesan “itineraries” or high demand movements are demanding to sequester, without prior warning, the entirety of monies collected among ordinary members of certain groups (intended for their own routine local expenses) in localities where the said movements or “itineraries” are not “welcomed”, which monies never get accounted for, but appear to be spent on entertaining and “arranging” (via an archipelago), do your readers think the Charities Commission, Revenue and various official bodies set up for the regulating of religion, will know about all this already?
Surely it must not be dumped on every Tom, Dick and Harry that gets wind, to “fix” or “caretake” all such goings on? Such archdiocesan “itineraries” or high demand movements and their business dealings anywhere, are commonly under control of pals of Parolin and McCarrick (both of China “fame”), so I believe (and there are, from time to time, certain Maltese connections also). The ambiguity in the status of several of the characters mentioned, is similar to some of those in the context I have outlined. (On a not very different note, did you know Mr Trump, who wants to weaken the UK among other countries, went to Fordham?) Confuse, bamboozle, hint ancient power.
In the case I cite, it could immediately be cleared up if the operatives described either flash their archdiocesan credentials openly, in which case we can rest assured Nichols / Wilson & colleagues will make sure the matter is kept proper, or indeed if they stop pretending affiliation to any archdiocese or to the “catholic” brand name and stop using their premises and time. In addition they ought to try to be less boastful among those they mix with, so as not to burden, “imprint” or “implicate” them. Small individuals who aren’t well connected can become “accessory” without knowing what they are “accessory” to. Jesus said bear one anothers’ burdens, He didn’t say, carry around a powerful clique’s baggage. It’s fascinating to recall, eventually, whose name got frequently mentioned, like a future beloved leader. It’s dreadfully onerous to be expected to “split” just when one is rapidly losing interest. Are churchy things, something one can just saunter off from and leave as they are, or do we have to laboriously bore both sacred and secular authority about all the ins and outs? No doubt loopholes got researched. Small individuals have less duty of care than powerful ones.

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In law, ownership of much property belongs to the Church in its various guises as religious order, dioceses, parishes etc. That is the legal position. However, the moral position is a bit more nuanced. You have to ask the question, where did this money come from originally ? And, there is no doubt that the vast majority came from the widow’s mite, from the faithful in the pews. So, morally speaking, the Church needs to take care of these resources as if they were still the faithful’s, rather than treating them as something for the clerical hierarchy to play with and to enjoy. But, it is simplistic to say that the Church should sell everything and give it to the poor. As Archbishop Marcinkus was quoted as saying, when asked why the Vatican needed a bank, “You can’t run the Church on Hail Marys”. But, how those resources are managed and used is very much a moral question. The story of this blog today suggests that the Church has moved away from a culture of being morally responsible and careful, to a culture of greed and speculation. I note that the Holy Father has appointed Bishop Galantino from the Diocese of Cassano all’Jonio in Calabria where he was renowned for a simple lifestyle and concern for the poor to the position of overseeing the Vatican Patrimony, as well as appointing a Jesuit (who is not to become a bishop) as Prefect of the Secretariate for the Economy in succession to Cardinal Pell. These appointments send out a message of simplicity and transparency, which is how the Church’s finances and material benefits should be treated. They belong to the faithful in truth, not to cardinals, bishops and priests for them to use at their whim. (https://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/12220/power-games-in-the-roman-curia-pose-greatest-threat-to-financial-reform-)
On another note, I see that Fr Bernard Lynch is to be honoured by the Irish President for work done abroad. He has been a courageous advocate of LGBTQI issues and people for decades, not least for those who have been affected by Aids/HIV. He says some pretty pointed things about the Church and sexuality and the duplicity /duality/hypocrisy that exists in the Church and the clerical culture about sexuality. (https://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/12219/-we-need-to-talk-about-god-and-sexuality-says-priest).
Interestingly (and I have no doubt that this has reared its head precisely because of his upcoming honour from the President of Ireland in order to undermine and discredit him), when I Googled his name there was a reference to a NY Daily News article about “Outspoken gay Catholic priest Bernard Lynch accused of late 70’s sexual abuse of teen student sat Bronx school….” That’s recent, in the last 12 hours, but unfortunately I can’t download it to read the whole thing because of copyright issues. I have not doubt that his award and this accusation are connected. I have to say that I found his comments about the Church, the clergy, and sexuality, and the dysfunction, dishonesty and hypocrisy that exists in the clerical ranks, rang so very true and accords with that I know and have experienced over decades being in the company of priests. He calls it out with clear, and simple honesty and tells it as it is. The Bronx school accusation will be in response to this, I am sure. When threatened, our holy clergy can be very underhand and defensive.

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The claim against Bernard Lynch was long thrown out; it was an attempt then as now to discredit him. His comments on gays in the Church are highly pertinent, and the toxic culture he describes very familiar indeed, especially to readers of this blog. He could be an inspiration to Michael Byrne. However, I suspect the issue with Michael is not that he is gay, but that he turned the heads of many an old queen in the Archdiocese and became attached to the good things of this passing world. Nevertheless he was young and easily flattered. Many have spoken of his good heart, so he could still put that to good effect.

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12:39

Good observations. In the past, M. Byrne volunteered with The Paddy McGrath Housing Project which provides specialised housing for those living with HIV/AIDS.

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Thank you A@12:03 for some highly pertinent observations. Comments such as yours make this blog worth reading and thinking about. Others making highly personal negative comment completely detract from the blog’s value.
MMM

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MMM you sound the sort of person who needs a good shite. Your face probably looks like someone walking around as if suffering from constipation.

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O dear sweet blessed darling. Our holy Mother Foundress would so rejoice, so she would. So wise you are. Help us all with your prayers. Who needs Kitty the hare when we have our luvly MMM.

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@1204 -why do you need to be so egregiously personally insulting to MMM ? If you can’t find something constructive and intelligent to contribute to the discussion, I suggest you move on and keep your foul views to yourself.

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Anonymous 21st Nov 2019 — 12:03 pm — LGBTQI
Careful. DANGER – DANGER – DANGER
If you google-search LGBTQI you’ll see that the Q stands for ‘Queer’ and that Queer is inclusive of Consensual SadoMasochistic Activity.
It’s a pervertion that’s been popular among Evangelical Christians, both clergy and laity.
If you think that’s harmless then please read about the Christian barrister John Smyth QC – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Smyth_(barrister).
And if you’ve a strong enough stomach try to watch this.

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I do think, Joe, you are mistaken about the significance of Q = Queer. Firstly it was a reappropriation of that charming epithet which used to be thrown around school playgrounds, factories, the popular press … you name it. Gays reclaimed it to express difference rather than conformity to social norms such as marriage. Today of course things have shifted yet again with some, though not all gays, now embracing hetero-normative bourgeois conventions: each to his own. Queer then is also used by heterosexuals who chose to reject those same conventions, which in some ways is a return to the roots of gay and women’s liberation in the seventies. As the novelist Edmund White has expressed it, not every gay wants to get hitched at City Hall, adopt a Korean orphan and join the PTA.

S & M is an aspect of queer life ( i.e. both straight and gay ), though both recreational and consensual for a minority of adults who like that sort of thing, and probably less harmful than smoking and drinking. This is a far cry indeed from the sexual and physical abuse inflicted on children, who have certainly not given their consent, by vicious and misguided pastors and, I am very much afraid, by parents. It is unforgivable that the UK still drags its feet on outlawing “smacking” children which, if done to an adult, would be rightly regarded as a criminal offence. In the USA it is termed “spanking” and it is very troubling that the practice is defended and so popular among conservative evangelicals, who are convinced God hates gays but loves thrashing little kids. So I certainly agree with you there, Joe, though it scarcely needs repeating that Catholic orders have also a very dark history in this respect. Spot the perves!

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I don’t see in principle why an old presbytery should not be redeveloped and the parish priest allocated a flat within the community. I find the response of the local authority, Kensington and Chelsea worrying though not surprising – notwithstanding their handing over Grenfall Tower to a managing company, they allowed the site of Heythrop – formerly the Assumption Convent – Kensington Square to be developed for luxury retirement homes – no social housing there. In less salubrious but still eye-waterigly expensive North Kensington there may be housing designated as social, but it is neither decent nor affordable. Where were the residents of Grenfall Tower rehoused – all in the neighbourhood? Whether the Church should be involved with social housing projects is one question – I don’t see why not, given its provision of schools, which it fiercely hangs onto – but the larger question is the Vatican as a corrupt state. As in so many matters concerning organized religion, there is little accountability.

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Pat
Allen Hall will be sold off shortly. When Roger Taylor moves to the Cathedral in September, shortly afterwards you will see Allen Hall moving nearer Twickenham where everyone studies now. I’ve heard from Warwick street that one of their contemporaries is managing the move. Once again the Anglicans are running the party.

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What a load of tosh. Allen Hall is not or will not be sold as long as a Cardinal remains in Westminster. It would be like losing a limb and prestige for any Cardinal there. The rumour regarding Taylor is also false. A Westminster Auxiliary will soon be dispatched to a Sede Vacante. God help whoever gets them.

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Well, there you are! Little to with reality and everything to do with power and prestige. Many dioceses, even former big players such as Liverpool, no longer have their own seminaries; in fact none remain in the entire north of England. The seminary model was a reform at Trent. If it was appropriate for its time, it certainly is no longer. Re Anon @4:10, ex-Anglicans in the Catholic priesthood are rather like women in the Anglican clergy: what discernible benefits if any have been reaped? Ironic as women were the “problem” which let them in, and they have bought their own unpleasant Anglo-Papalist culture with them.

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Pat is this the reason why Vin Nichols has got rid of the chief finance officer, the Italian Paoulo?? Any connection worth having a look.

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The Italian Chief of finance at Ambrosden Avenue in Westminster was Elsie’s financial right hand man for a good few years. It’s all gone pear shaped for some reason. The Italian was a bit of an ayatollah when it came to finances and had many run ins with PP’s.

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Bernard Lynch warned that the more homophobic priests are, “the likelier it is that they are homosexual and they are practising”.

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Thank you @1:56 & 3:20: appreciated.
I just ignore comment like 2:04’s. If such is the height of their wit and wisdom there’s no point in attempting to engage with them in any way.
MMM

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Pat, I went into the Sinn Fein office/shop today on the Falls Road. I saw some nice Mass cards on sale and the lady in the shop said she would stamp them if needed. I asked who would celebrate the Mass and she said one of the local priests. I then asked which one and she couldn’t tell me who. Surely this is highly irregular.

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I am quite sure it is forbidden. But it could be connected to Clonard?

I went into the Holy Shop in Belfast recently wearing my collar and the lady asked me if I wanted a signed or unsigned card.

I told her I might be able to sign my own 😊

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4.55

The cardinal will not close his seminary. He is deciding to rehouse it somewhere else in the diocese. As for Taylor, this is a given. The dean of the cathedral is retiring and Taylor will become his replacement. He chose this himself.
The Anglican’s are everywhere and what is concerning that they are at the heart of the cardinals own seminary and in key roles across his diocese.

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Allen Hall was given to Westminster by Nuns who wanted it used solely for the formation of Priests. If it’s no longer used for that purpose then the property goes back to the Order. It would be in Elsie’s interests to retain it as a Seminary.

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A very interesting point. I wonder whether the land is freehold as that part of Chelsea is not part of the big estates such as Cadogan, and would have been considered a fairly poor district when the convent was built. No longer! The Order of Adoration and Reparation – whatever that is – is on its last legs in Western Europe and USA. Am I right in thinking it still has a house in Belfast which was in the news a couple of years ago because it had to turn away a couple of juniors – or is that something different? London alone – a Protestant/secular city – is full of these huge piles of Catholic real estate. What happens to the monetary windfall? It’s not enough to state that it devolves to the Church, but how is the Church defined regarding ownership? As usual the poor suckers in the pews know nothing, as we/they are not even considered as Church when it comes to ownership. Pay up, and shut up; that’s good enough for the plebs.

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8.19 – Get over yourself. Former Anglicans are now Catholic. They are not Anglican any more. They have chosen to become Catholic. End of.

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Not Anglican any more? Are you kidding me? Having been through the ceremony and got themselves – finally – validly ordained makes no difference to how they think and act, any more than Elton John’s first marriage made him heterosexual. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then – sorry, chum – it’s still a duck and always will be!

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Hi up hi Validly Ordained! My auntie Marie’s contrary canary hi. Does the law now tell God what he can do. No animals in the crib this year hi. It doesn’t promote healthy childcare but. I a duck still quacks to be sure

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A wee houseen in the wee north is nothing compared to the mafia like goin ons in the story above. Where the schyte lies there the holy horse flies will gather to share the blood hi

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Anonymous 21st Nov 2019 — 7:19 pm wrote — (quote) —
… S & M is an aspect of queer life ( i.e. both straight and gay ), though both recreational and consensual for a minority of adults who like that sort of thing …
 (unquote) —
I agree with a lot of what you’ve said in your post but. there always have to be serious worries about Consensual SadoMasochism in any situation.
. How freely given was the consent to the punishment? and
. Was the punishment then doled out only that which the consent had been agreed?

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