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WALES – PARISHIONERS WIN VATICAN APPEAL AGAINST CHURCH CLOSURE.

Staff Reporter Catholic Herald

6 January, 2020

Church of St Michael and All Angels, Conwy

St Michael and All Angels church in north Wales must remain open, the Vatican has ruled

Parishioners in Conwy, north Wales, have won their appeal to the Vatican against the closure of their church.

The last Mass at St Michael and All Angels church was celebrated in February 2018 after Bishop Peter Brignall of Wrexham announced its closure. He cited lack of clergy for the decision.

At the time, parishioners said they were “heartbroken” by the closure.

Spokeswoman Anne McCaffrey told the BBC they were prepared to hire a canon lawyer to take their appeal to the highest level.

“To close a church building there needs to be grave cause, a technical term in church law,” she said.

“St Michael’s is structurally sound, financially viable with a strong community.”

The churchgoers have now been told their appeal to the Congregation for the Clergy has been successful, and Bishop Brignall has put the closure on hold.

A spokesman for the bishop said: “The intended permanent closure of the church cannot currently take place.

“The consequences of that decision have now to be considered by the bishop along with the parish priest, the presbyteral council of the diocese and the diocesan trustees, as well as the parish finance committee and pastoral.

PAT SAYS

Fair play to the Conwy parishioners for taking stuffy old Brignall to the Vatican and beating him.

Brignall wanted to close 20 of his dioceses churches as he only has 22 priests below retirement age.

The problem is that these bishops and clergy think THEY own churches.

Bishops and priests are only passing through. It is the parishioners and their forebears who built the churches by paying for them.

Many parishioners in different parts of the world have brought bishops to Rome on this issue and beaten them.

People, stand up to these dictators in ways you have not before.

109 replies on “WALES – PARISHIONERS WIN VATICAN APPEAL AGAINST CHURCH CLOSURE.”

Not necessarily so. The parishioners may not all be Welsh.
For the same reason, sports commentators a few years back began to refer to the team of the nation, eg Ireland, rather than the nationality, Irish, as some players may have been born outside Ireland, and have chosen to play for Ireland as a descendant of a native born Irish person.

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Exactly Pat. They forget they are servants, not lords or masters. They also seem to forget who pays their wages. Good on the people of Conwy.

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Morning hi fly.
Begorra fly people are supposed to come before pounds and pennies but people need to stand up
to boyos and girlieos who like to use the boot particularly power hungry boyos in the kooky kollard klub.
Bye bye fly hi.

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Interesting re GPDR yesterday, it depends on different dioceses except for abuses files which was burned. I was told these files were deliberately burned especially nuns but CBS were honest as they kept the files. One thing is clear to me coming from abuse background was that i cant trust rcc anymore, cant trust pope, bishops and cardinals. First time i stopped going to church last sunday and day of obligation yest. Realised that they were living on a lie.
Now the article above bring back one memory of one church in Cork. Bishop magee wanted to renovate and expand that church. The total cost of that renovation was 1M pounds or euro cos it took place in 1995. Few pashioners including deceased relative of mine fought against bishop magee idea of renovation. Letters were exchanged as word of mouth passed to now deceased PP of that church. Two years of battle as parish won cos bishop magee dropped the whole thing. I rem that incident well as ex relative was furious cos bishop magee expected parishioners to step in and pay up 1M bill. Relative wasnt having none of this. Looking back now, it was power crazed move by magee as parish church wasnt rich. The symptom of power crazed bishop and cardinals especially when it comes to empire building in their own diocese. In any business, shareholder would then stop contributing it cos of ’empire building’ (in the interest of one person in control).
To pat buckley, By the way i had seen old letter to irish times editor by kevin doran on pat buckley. That was 1997 i think as it came up first in google ( strange). The word ‘ prophet’ was used.

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The solution is simple. Stop perpetuating the nutty notion that only single, supposedly celibate, men can be ordained to be priests. Ordain married men, ordain women, ordain people of difference, ordain the whole spectrum of humanity. They are all God’s creation. Stop waffling on about the normative example of Jesus as a justification for prejudices and attitudes that have nothing to do with Jesus. Of course he lived in a particular way with particular social attitudes, because he lived over 2000 years ago. We need to live now. They you are, simple solution, and Conway would certainly have a priest soon enough. And with that mix of clergy, the clerical ranks would be a much healthier, happier, adjusted place with less dangerous dysfunction that we see amongst so many of our male, supposedly celibate, clergy.
And yes, any move in this direction would probably lead to some kind of split, a bit like the United Methodists are doing in the US. But, so what ? Let the so called traditionalists and rigourists go off by themselves if they want. They will certainly die out in time. Their choice.

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I think you’ll find that the liberals are dieing off. Usually 70 plus, they contracted so had small families, their few children are lapsed and the grandchildren are unbaptised. Liberal Orders have the demographics of a nursing home. The trads on the other hand are young, have big families and are joining trad orders and seminaries. That’s the future.

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5:22
Delusional.
The trads don’t have abusers, do they not? Oh, hold on! Maciels, Legion of Christ are a bunch of Trads, are they not?
Opus Dei, another bunch of trads with plenty of abusers. Thrills in frills or what?
Cop yourself on. Silly stuff.

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In reply to 5:47, the LCs and Opus Dei are neo-cons, not trads. They don’t celebrate the Mass of Ages, for example.

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At 6 19
That’s a massive misnomer and a major historical fallacy.
There is no such thing as the Mass of Ages. The form of the Mass developed historically like every other liturgical phenomenon. Take a look at the definitive work on the subject: Jungmann’s, The Mass of the Roman Rite.

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Regarding apostolic succession, o dont think its valid cos names went missing, bad popes, st peter was never in Rome, why rome? It would be better in jesus homeland rather than Rome itself. Rcc lost their way because first thing comes to my mind of jesus did lot was his healing ministry which was largely abandoned by rcc as they went for power or something. Their word such as sacred tradition which isn’t reliable cos oral tradition changed to suit their needs. Sonetimes tradition couldnt be passed due to gap that arose that time. It left me wondering re luther 95 theses .whats all the fuss about that?? Also question of mary superceded jesus in terms of devotion which I thought that jesus should be overwhelming focus. I suspect that 99% marian apparitions (approved and unapproved) are false. Devil did disguised as a BVM before. Mary was lowly figure and said v v fee words in the bible. Then many centuries later, she is the central figure as opposed lowly figure in the bible which i suspected vatican/popes upgraded her status. Catholics would call me protestant. Questioning of Mary arose when i visited Fatima. It was empty, arid spiritual atmosphere, no new healings, all commericals, it felt like a fake. I felt nothing empty, then thought came as money racket exercise for the vatican. It was a portugese masonic society who announced apparition few months in advance as it turned correct. But i believe Lourdes and knock as i experienced it re spiritual. The problem was mary overtaking jesus in stakes of popularity re devotions or prayers- was/is it wrong re priority of where prayer of importance lay.

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The Holy Roman Empire Constantine knew he was on to a good thing. The fear of God linked to the divine right of kings is a mighty motivator hi. Anyway why do kings need crowns and bishops shark tooth headgear. It’s not intrinsic to the role Ascend to next level as they might say on star gate sg 1 Hi beam me up scotty hi

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Good night hi fly.
Lift off fly we had lift off from Cape Canaveral with plenty of pointy hatted loolaas on board.
Scotty doesn’t know where to beam them up to their such a motley crew. They make Spock look normal.
The U.S. of A with never be the same.
May the force be with you hi fly.
Bye bye fly hi.

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Ag 11:42
Are the two points not representing male and female?
Or left and right?
Or east and west?
Or north and south?

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9:22 p.m.
Constantine died 337A.D. The Holy Roman Empire began with Charlemagne in 800 A.D.
It’s clear why you write such gibberish. If I knew as little as you do and had the same impulse to broadcast as you have, I’d be trying to cover my ignorance by any means I could.

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Fair play to them. Walsh shamelessly closed St Joseph’s in the docks in Belfast. A church with a long distinguished history. Mind you, with falling congregations all over the place, it won’t be long before Bishop Bling closes more of the churches in D&C. He needs to ask himself why congregations are falling. It’s because a lot of people have realised that a lot of his priests are charlatans. They won’t accept the dictatorial styles of priests who preach but don’t live the gospel. “By your fruits are ye known”. They are certainly now known for their actions as is bishop bling. A disaster of a leader and pastor

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10.22
Church i mean bishops don’t give a damn about parishioners just incoming money from them. There is a huge disconnect between parishoners and the bishops or priests. Dictatorial styles are gone cos we takevno shyte from them now due to abuses. They cant be trusted re thier word or assurances etc. Think rcc in ireland is finished but it will take decades or years to recover. Once any reputation is damaged beyond repair then its hugely and quite doubly difficult for them to get back to when they were once in huge grip and power over ireland with no accountability at all whatsoever. Big mistake that brits did in 1921 was to leave ireland, hence a vacuum which enabled rcc to took over vaccum then they took off after that until Bishop Casey story broke through.

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10:47
You are exhibiting classic Stockholm Syndrome by lamenting the departure of ‘the brits’ as you call them.

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Yes, “by their fruits shall you know them” ! And the fruits that I see are priests who like to live in a gilded world of comfort and excess, being the centre of attention, and wrapping it all up in some twee nonsense about being of service and using the gifts that the Lord has given them. Like The Priests ! What a pile of saccharine shiite comes out of their mouths every time they speak about their great ‘gift’ and their ‘ministry’. It makes me gag !
And then there are the boys who spend their time doing the rounds of the cruising grounds, the woods, the lay-bys, the bars and the saunas (although the latter probably a bit further from home because they would be recognised), or heading off to the winter sunshine gay paradise of The Canaries or elsewhere for a bit of extra curricular activity.
And they think that they have us fooled !

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By the sounds of it you could do with a visit to the cruising grounds etc, you seem to be very familiar with all the regular gay haunts.

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Oh yes, I am familiar with the gay subculture. And, barely a time goes by when I go out and celebrate my sexuality, that I don’t bump in to Roman Catholic priests. They are well known in the gay community, even if they think that they are being discreet and concealing their identity. Some of the porkies they tell are beyond belief ! And then off they trot to their presbyteries, freshen up, and then say Mass. Well, let’s hope they freshen up and wash their hands before ! The difference is, I haven’t taken a public vow of celibacy, they have ! I guess I’ll only go to hell for misuse of my bits. What excuse will they have ? Better for them to be honest with themselves and with others, rather than perpetuating a lie and living parallel lives. That would be the honest thing for them to do. But, they won’t do that, because the living is too good and they wouldn’t want to give that up and have to go and earn their own keep like the rest of us.

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Well, I’m tempted ! Some have been mentioned on here a few times already. But, no, I’ll keep my peace, and let the boyos wondering for a bit. They know who they are. Giant’s Ring, Tardree Forest, and a few more. Familiar places, familiar names. Keep them on their toes. + Pat will know who they are !

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I recall visiting a French parish’s church in Northen France about ten years ago. A parishioner gave me the key and reminded me to lock up afterwards. Any other local visitor would know who has the key, I was told.
In the porch was a roster identifying the day the priest would call for Mass and other sacraments. His visits were every 21 days. His circuit involved a visit to each of 20 churches on a 21 day rotation.
It was lovely to see a diocese understand that the number of churches does not equate with the number of priests. It was also a model of church that is starkly different to the Irish model – because ownership of the parish, it’s assets and it’s church is fully vested in the parishioners. The priest role is more biblical and reminded me of St. Paul.

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Some years ago I went to central France to celebrate a wedding and baptism. The local PP had no say in my using the lively old church. I had the permission of the mayor of the commune.

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By Post Author

The owner is the Church. The Irish plebs still want to USE the clergy and these church owned properties to be hatched, matched and dispatched not to mention First Communion and Confirmation. The Irish have a history of almost accepting abuse. Sure they are shortly celebrating Cromwells abuse of them in Drogheda. Warped and proves my point. Some of them want to be abused.

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1.12pm
That is exactly the problem re church ownership. Rcc in ireland usually list their churches as an asset. A big question now is when churches are to be sold in near future due to dwindling numbers, where will that proceeds from sale go to? Church bigwigs or the parish itself??? Would reasonably expect big numbers of churches to close down in near future. I like the french system cos it strips of church assets so church would be less powerful and dont have access to finances when churches are sold.

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I had not known that about the French State owning churches. Thank you for sharing this knowledge with me.
In response to your question, in Ireland/UK each parish is it’s own legal entity. That is why dioceses, when in financial trouble, cannot just take money from parish accounts.

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Do the same with the so-called Church of England, other Prods, and mosques and Sikh temples if it is such a great idea.

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1:36

Oooooh….who doesn’t like challenging questions about the Parish property+ buildings…..Ooooohh. 😳
You lads need to be put in your place! 😆

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Ciaran O’Carroll from the Irish College in Rome was the celebrant at Marian Finucane’s funeral in Co Kildare. Brian D’Arcy made a request to preside but was refused because Carroll was a relative.

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Bishop Pat
I am always amazed by how an opportunity presents itself. We will be needing a new Archbishop of Dublin shortly. One candidate likely for that role msgnr Carroll gets full RTÉ coverage today. Likely to stick in minds.

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Any truth to issues in Clonfert between new Bishop duigan and one vicar general cathal geraghty?
Have heard the new bishop has taken over his cathedral and is there very often compared to one bishop Kirby who visited less frequently.
Have heard that changes are afoot and geraghty says he is going no where. Duignan is 49 so likely to be around for 25+ years . Is this a good move on the vg part?

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Geraghty was always a pompous buffoon when in Thurles. Nothing much seems to have changed. Good on the new bishop, new broom and all that.

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Geraghty ran the diocese of Clonfert and thought he would become the bishop. Well done Papal Nuncio with your appointment of Bishop Duignan. Geraghty is in Loughrea since 1992 so more power to the new bishop if he moves him on! Time to give someone else a fair go. Bishop Kirby let Fr. Geraghty do as he pleased….and the clergy of Clonfert had to just put up with it. There’s great relief now that Geraghty will finally be moved on. Of course, it’s worth remembering that Geraghty is part of the notorious 1992 class in Thurles – yes, the year that produced Matt Ring & his protege from Clogher…..says it all really.

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I think quite a number of the 1992 Thurles gang have left the priesthood including Bob Noonan.

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Matt Ring was a Cloyne priest who left and went far in social work in England. I dont know who the Clogher man is.

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I’m stuck with the image from yesterday’s blog of Paul Prior’s keks! He obviously has a very strong underwear fetish. Were they used ones or had they been washed? I obviously was in Maynooth at the wrong time and missed out on Fr. Prior’s colourful collection. It does seem quite strange that he would invite students to his room for a private viewing of his extensive knicker collection!

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Many more news of Prior and the SJs ? Are they still having an inquiry in to his activities ? Will he remain an SJ ? So many questions…..!!

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They were washed and fresh back from the laundry in the Presentation Convent, where the seminary’s dirty linen was sent to be washed. The underwear display occured mainly in first and second year, 1986-88, though viewings were sometimes arranged when he was in Top Pats and Marys. It was a most unusual habit.

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I know it was a different time and Irish men at that time weren’t brought up to look after themselves. But still, the unfortunate nuns having to wash their underwear…

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The Presentation Convent, Maynooth is now apartments (Vatican II and all that) but up until 1988/89 the laundry of the seminarians and priests of Maynooth was washed there. You put your dirty washing in a laundry bag and they were taken by college staff to the convent, before coming back a week later. It wasn’t free. You paid per item. By the time it closed it was lay women who worked in the laundry and they lost their jobs when the nuns closed it in 1989, at a time when jobs were hard to come by.
There was one machine turning 24/7 just for Paul’s keks.

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Good on the people of north wales, similar issues here in the south, but we are lucky to have got a really good holy priest just became a priest last year so different to the others

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Fr Geraghty has been in the Cathedral since 1992. He is VG, chancellor of the diocese (he isn’t even a canon lawyer) and the parish priest of the cathedral. This is against canon law, which states that the bishop is the parish priest of his own cathedral. In Clonfert, the bishop is parish priest of ballinasloe which is very strange.

He thought he would get the nod for bishop but what a relief is was for US that he wasn’t made bishop. The man has plenty of secrets in his wardrobe. Thurles!

It’s time a younger priest comes and transforms the cathedral… watch out for new VG and new chancellor Michael byrnes

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The bishop is not the PP of the cathedral. The pp of a cathedral is a legal entity called the MENSA or the bishops table.

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Willie Lee had more eyes in Thurles than Geraghty. Ring and Mc Phillips were prefects and reported everything upstairs. Total snitches

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More nuanced! From research into two supposed laundries from a historian who is a religious.
Read Dr. Frances Finnegans ‘Do Penance or Perish’ Magdalen Asylums in Ireland.

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VETERAN IRISH BROADCASTER Larry Gogan has died at the age of 81.

The DJ was one of the most-loved figures on Irish radio and is synonymous with his 2FM programme The Golden Hour and his Just a Minute Quiz.

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He must have put a fair few thousand miles on the clock of the Merc with all these RTE funerals to go to.

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6.13: Buckley, for God’s sake, get a grip on your obsession with Brian Darcy. Your creepy obsession is bordering on the ridiculous. You look like an idiot with your constant references to Brian. He’s not your cup of tea – get past him. You certainly are not his! Are you motivated by jealousy as well as disdain and hatred? What a start to the new year for you! More of the same, childish and puerile crap.

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6.55: It’s an abnormal obsession and indicative of prepubescent immaturity. Let Brian do what he likes: It’s a free world. Pat should just cop on.

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7:27
The numerous prepubescent immature clerics, following raping children, were protected by many good priests and Bishops, obsessed with protecting the institutional Church. That’s indicative of gross hypocrisy, immorality, plus criminal behaviour.
Now, that’s an issue to get worked up over.

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For fuck sake give up about D’arcy. Who cares? He likes the limelight and the people like him. Bar a few gin queens here sticking the knife in. I seen people giving him money and him dividing it there and then. Seen him go up to women with young kids and handing it over. Seen him putting it through letter boxes of people who were out of work and paying Bill’s for folks.
Yes he does like the spotlight but does that make him bad?
Yes he can be stuck on repeat.
In my role in the health service for many years I have opened and closed eyes in the beginning and ending of lives. And I have witnessed D’arcy praying with the same people. Most of them had fuck all but his prayers

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Another Graanie but sound more like a Miss Marple watching Darcy and watching people’s letterboxes. Whatever next?

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Media is a stranggge place. Fr Darcy may be seen by some as a big flower in a vase but perhaps he is the only bit of religion some of these egibicated folk see. Does RTE have a chaplain hi but

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6.29: Well said. This recurring theme of anti Brian Darcy is infantile and utterly stupid. If Pat mentioned the good name of Jesus Christ as often as he references Brian Darcy he might evangelize a little more! It’s nonsense to have such negativity about Brian and I’m no fan. Grow up Pat – you’re in your bloody late 60’s: time to cop on. Be a man not a wimp.

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Frankly I don’t see why 22 priests cannot cover all the parishes in Menevia with at least one Sunday Mass; they just have to shift their arses. Even had the church in Colwyn closed there is an SSPX chapel nearby in Rhos, which is where I will be going.

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I am one of the 22. Take 6 off for long term illness or over retirement age, a couple of others who cannot drive, 2 who are not very mobile. Leaves very few. I “shift my arse” over 6 Parishes as it is. We need radical thinking and must amalgamate Dioceses to bring greater flexibility. Our beloved Bishop also covers several Parishes. Prayers rather than criticism are needed.

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Clearly the Diocese of Wrexham itself is no longer viable. It was only created thirty odd years ago at a time when more and more bishops were being appointed to do less and less.

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7.10: Aren’t you very clever? I’m glad you’re shifting your arse and heading to SSPX – you’re obviously no loss to your community if that’s your stupid attitude.

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I appreciate your backing me @7:49pm against sour grapes at 7:25. The SSPX faithfully provide a Mass in Rhos every Sunday at 5:00pm, whereas the diocese claim they cannot even manage that in one of their own churches in Colwyn. So go figure and draw your own conclusions.

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Any more news on the Spain, Liverpool and Lydiate mess Pat?
Apparently Fr Gerard from St Luke’s centre in Manchester could have prevented more harm.

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Are you sure about that? I hear the competition for that particular accolade is very stiff.

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The Archdiocese of Liverpool are in a terrible mess at the moment and it looks as though it is all about to come out.
The ex seminarian nearly died and is suffering with ptsd as a result of what happened to him. Fr Gerard could have stopped this. Has he failed in his capacity as a priest as well as a counsellor?
It will be interesting to see what the repercussions are over the coming months.

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Not only does Treanor think that he owns the churches. The RCC have also been left vast swathes of land in deceased farmers wills. This diocese is an affront to Christianity. How is it getting away with it? Clericalism in this diocese is rife. They really need a good kick in the arse. Who do they think they are? They manipulate, use and abuse people for their own ends. Less than 10 per cent of them would be able to function in the real world. A church is a body of people, not a bishop and his boyos. They make my blood boil. Charlatans the whole bloody lot of them either by their double standards or their silence. I feel angry that I allowed them to deceive me for so long.

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10.09: What an over the top, apoplectic, faux outburst. Go and join the Oratory if you are so stupidly disgruntled. Put your own Christianity into action. What are you doing for the good of your community, apart from being barking mad?

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Another D&C dictator barking at being challenged while illustarting unChristian like attitudes.
What are you doing for the good your community, you abusive person?

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10:18
There’s an Irish priest who served in that neck of the woods, back in Ireland. The cops are keeping an eye on him.

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For goodness sake, Bp Pat, let’s have some interesting soon. A good Maynooth strange goings-on, for example.

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10:40 and 11:01. Not faux outrage. Please learn the difference. It’s typical of blind Catholics to respond in this way. Your comments tend to suggest that it’s ok for the Catholic church to continue to act in the way it does. This is very very sad that you would even try to defend such an institution which acts against Christs teachings. Do you not believe in Christs teachings but instead think that it is ok for an organisation to masquerade as disciples of Christ. This is pathetic as well as sad. Go ahead. Repeat the same mantra “faux outrage” etc etc. doesn’t change the facts which are staring you in the face but you either don’t see or choose to ignore. As I said: Sad. Open your eyes

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