Church structures in Ireland ‘not fit for purpose’
by Sarah Mac Donald The Tablet
St Brendan’s Cathedral, Loughrea
Photo: John McElroy/Irish Catholic Bishops
A member of the leadership of the Association of Catholic Priests in Ireland has paid tribute to the German bishops for their national synodal procedure, and its aim of passing resolutions on church life in Germany.
In his address, “What does it mean to be Catholic today?” Fr Roy Donovan said the German bishops were willing to take strong leadership roles within the overall Church and “face conflict constructively”.
At the Mercy Justice Centre in Dublin on Monday evening at an event hosted by the lay reform group We Are Church Ireland, he praised the German synodal procedure for putting the reform issues of power, compulsory celibacy, sexual morality and women “openly on the table”.
The parish priest of Caherconlish and Inch St Laurence in Co Limerick lamented the Irish bishops’ focus on their own diocesan systems and said they had “no sense that we need to follow the German example of a two-year ‘binding synodal path’.”
Fr Donovan highlighted that people across Ireland are beginning to see that “our systems, structures, parishes are no longer fit for purpose”.
Diocesan structures had been put in place in the twelfth century, while the country’s parishes had their roots in the Middle Ages. “The faith we now have developed in the nineteenth century.
This nineteenth century Roman Catholicism entailed a profound pacification of the laity – keep people happy with all kinds of devotions,” he said. He claimed that the Irish Church has too many dioceses and churches. “We have too many celebrations of Masses on Sundays with small gatherings. We have reached a crisis point,” he said and suggested that one of the Irish Church’s problems was “holding on to what we know”.
“A lot of priests are saying ‘sure it will see me out’ and continue to work out of the old model. There is not enough appetite for change which would require major reversals.”
Bishop Dermot Farrell of Ossory has said the Irish Church needs “a bold creative response rather than fleeing from the reality of the distressful present.”
Speaking to Religious gathered for a celebration of World Day of Consecrated Life, he said: “Our Lord is the Lord of risk. Bold decisions must be taken today, even if it is painful to do so, and we risk making the wrong decision. Otherwise we die of irrelevancy.”
I have no time for the ACP – so called Association of Catholic Priests.
They are a crowd of clerical complainers and disappointed bishops.
As far as they are concerned a priest – especially one of their members – can do no wrong.
I was only at one of their conferences. I went to see what they were like.
They are such good Christian’s that they didn’t speak to me.
They are verbal liberals – all talk and no action – all cackle and no egg.
I have more radicalism in my little finger than have the whole ACP bunch together.
They want to radical and save their cosy clerical lives.
At the conference most of them were hunched together is most gay cliques.
The solution to the Irish church is this:
Restrict bishops, priests and religious to pastoral work only.
Put all power, authority and finance in the hands of elected lay people – including the schools.
Restrict all clerics to ministry and Sacraments.
91 replies on “ACP AND CHURCH STRUCTURES.”
Surely the ACP is a step in theright direction. Are you really going to suggest that every reform movement othrr than then oratory has got it wrong?
When did the ACP ever issue a strong statement condemning clerical sexual abuse?
8.39: Stop causing trouble and telling lies. You are not better than any of the members of the ACP. This is a good organisation for the well being of priests. It has made many relevant statements about the horror of all abuses. You always only choose what suits you. You are, essentially, a bigot. You despise priests. That is nit OF CHRIST. God bless the ACP.
Yes lol it’s for the well being OF PRIESTS.
You have told us all we need to know!
What, er, ‘many relevant statements about the horror of all abuses’ did the ACP make? Quote five. And cite the sources for them. (I don’t mean the ACP itself, but the publications, occasions, etc in which these statements were made publicly AND openly. No anonymity.)
By the way, you mentioned ‘all abuses’. So when did the ACP issue a signed statement condemning Noel Treanor’s lavish expenditure on his very large home?
12:02pm, passive aggressive much?
I am just astonished at the level of your arrogance Pat. No one seems to come close to your ‘perfection’. You have such disdain for Catholic Clergy that you are a complete contradiction of Christ and his gospel. I’m actually glad no one welcomed you. You despise almost every priest. Ypur brand of Christianity is akin to despotism;,you are a one man band, playing god with everyone whom you deem undesirable. Look deeply into your diminished soul.
A clerical unChrist like attitude, if ever!
Diversion again, whose media advisor are you?
I support the ACP but I am surprised and disappointed that they didn’t welcome you Pat. Our church needs to be a welcoming church. Give them another chance.
They know where I am ?
I would say, and genuinely have said this to people, that Pat’s ministry is more akin to a vague sort of ‘humanism’. There’s ‘a bit’ of Christianity there, but not of any great substance :/. not sure why he refers to himself as a catholic either. seems very bizarre?
What is the quintessence of Christianity?
Belief in the divinity of JC?
Belief in the Resurrection?
Heck! You’ve got the picture, haven’t you?
I LOVE helping others, so here’s a clue: 1 Cor 13: 2
If housing and feeding the homeless, helping to detoxify the addicted (and God-knows-what-else Pat Buckley has done in the name of this thing) isn’t expressing what Paul insists upon from Christians, above all else, then what is?
How have you expressed it?
2:23, hmmmm I somewhat agree with this. I suppose we would need to come up with a definition of a christian; is it a belief in christ, his divinity, the trinity? etc. I would say though that Bishop Buckley does encompass attributes of many faiths, and add to that humanism. Maybe he is trying to be a good christian rather than identify as a christian. IDK.
Christians are those whose behaviour, activity, and speech mirror Christ Jesus.
I think you ere in describing +Pat’s ministry as “vague humanism.” He clearly believes in the divine albeit with a different perspective from orthodox RC teaching.
Humanism on the other hand has no belief in the existence of the divine, of God or gods.
”not sure why he refers to himself as a catholic either. seems very bizarre?”
Pat, could you perhaps address this question. I’m curious
Pat, Pat, Pat, the solution you espouse is and has been underway for some time now. I know it can be hard to see this with you living in your panacea in Larne N’all, but the world has moved on. Go with God 🙂
12.56: Pat can’t go with GOD: that requires love, charity, compassion, mercy, living like CHRIST, not just quoting words and piotious praying as at the Larne Shed…Pat loves himself so narcissistically that no one else’s life can ever reach his noble heights!!
A bishop in the Rcc told me lies not very long ago.
So much for living like Christ, love, charity, compassion, mercy, quoting words and pious praying from the diocesan cathedral.
So Bishop P. cannot go with God for lack of love, charity, compassion, and the rest.
Now should I ever find myself down on my luck, homeless, and drug addicted, to whom should I turn? Pat, with his record of putting up in his own home people unknown to him, people drug-addicted whom he was helping to detoxify, people…?
Or someone such as you?
What is your record on these human tragedies?
Pat would do a much better job than Amy.
9.17: You are so delusional. You are brainwashed by a master manipulator, Buckley. As bad, if not, worse than the crowd he condemns! You should think for yourself and not depend on this blog for truth. And Pat would NOT do a better job than Archbishop Martin. He is far too divisive, vengeful and vindictive.
Are you on drugs?
Seriously what do you think Pat is or does in life?
All Pat is capable of is causing hurt and pain to others in dagger like attack.
Not a nice man!
A sure tables are great. Lay people have no power in the hierarchy except to pray and pay and stay – under the thumb hi. Clericos have mostly lost their contact with the people. Having served microwave religion and sacraments for centuries the kukes have forgotten how to cook – bad for the environment y no hi
Will structural change make a difference? I’d doubt it.
It’s like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titantic.
Deep conversion in the Rcc Institution and it’s personnel is required.
I cannot see that happening apart from Divine intervention.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Apply those rules to yourself, but also add the vow of charity in words and deeds!
No; Satan has found a very comfortable, and complaisant, home elsewhere to move in with me.
And it is with you lot, priest.
When it comes to irrelevancy, the clergy & hierarchy have only themselves to hold responsible.
They put themselves, their clericalist status, their notions of power, and their clerical brotherhood,
before all, including the Gospel.
The duplicity, hypocrisy and the appalling destruction of so many lives is a scandal that cries out to Heaven.
There are far too many moral cowards in the priesthood.
Whether liberal, radical or conservative is irrelevant to those whose lives are ruined.
The gospel of life? Shame on All of them!
7.46: A total lie and an unfair misrepresentation of real truths, but others into the pernicious anti clerical agenda of Pat and his band. Shameful untruths and more lies.
Tell us the untruths?
You hit a bullseye.
Yes, there are indeed too many moral cowards in the Romanist priesthood, which is proof that they do not possess the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit is not marked by timidity.
1.34: You just can’t resist showing your detestation for priests. Really Magna, your body must be near to rotting with all your bilious hatred: we know for a long time that your soul is dead. As for your supposed possession of the ‘spirit’ – let’s just say Satan has indeed found a worthy dwelling place in you!!
There is a word used in mental health to describe what is missing in the clerics posting above, to every publication by any cleric of the Catholic Church. The word is ‘insight’ and you don’t have any.
Will you ever listen to yourselves screaming abuse at Pat Buckley and telling him to be charitable like you. Seriously!
These moral cowards who watch innocent ones trodden under foot, their names are written in the book of their hearts desire. There are two books: The book of Life – and the other book.
Salvation is a free gift for all; you can accept it or you can reject it. But you cannot have your cake and eat it.
Hot Air Brigade…!😂
Spot on !
Pat. I see your old friend Fr Gerard McConville has died. I can tell you that there are many of his former pupils from Garron Tower who will shed no tears. He was a sadistic and viscous man who seemed to derive pleasure from administering severe physical punishments. In fact it was this feature of his behaviour which led to his being removed in great haste from GT.
I have not seen him for nearly 40 years.
I do know he was very sadistic in GT.
ACP are mostly old men now, Bp Pat, all strokes and no load.
The ACP are all a load of shite. They are HAM – Hot Air Merchants. No balls. Pip squeaks. Release statements from time to time but wont take on the hierarchy. Talking shop. Waste of time and space. Many clergy who joined initially have run for the hills and now avoid them like the plague, too embarrassed to be associated with them.
Yes, the ACP caca in their pants rather than challenge the hierarchy. Even the auld bishops mock and scoff at them behind closed doors. They wished the ACP would do a parachute jump without the parachutes.
I shouldn’t get too excited about the Synodal Path of the German Bishops’ Conference. Talking openly about previously taboo issues, like sexuality and celibacy, does not necessarily indicate impending revolutionary change in traditional Church doctrine for Germany. I very much doubt that it will. More likely than not, such doctrinal hot potatoes will eventually be considered far too hot to handle and will, politely, be dropped. Unilateral doctrinal change by the German bishops would signal the beginning of schismatic break with Rome, but there is no Martin Luther involved this time round. Oh, there might be a recommendation that the Vatican reconsider such teaching; nothing more self-assertive than this. The young buck isn’t ready to take on the old stag. At least, not yet.
Gerhard Ludwig Cardinal Mueller is hopping mad at the very idea these discussions are to take place at all; he smells sedition in the air and has already retaliated by describing this startling initative as Nazi-like in its magisterial (executive) nature. But he needn’t worry
The Irish bishops have neither the brains nor the backbone for such a measure, which might strike one as odd given Ireland’s history of rebellion against British sovereignity.
Pope Francis can continue to sleep through this sound and fury, because it signifies absolutely nothing.
Some think a schism in coming in Germany?
Last week somebody posted on here that Canon Fullerton had died. Fake news. Awful!
Please don’t all rush at once but if you want to learn more about Papa Franco’s schedule for lent and Easter you can find it on the Down and Connor twitter feed.
Papa Franco’s unlikely to be visiting Argentina, in the near or distant future.
The ACP were amazing when I was accused in the wrong. I don’t agree with a lot of their theological opinions, but I respect their right to hold and present them. I can never thank them enough for the help they gave when my good name was dragged through the mud. The bishop didn’t back me, but they did.
How did the ACP back you?
What did they do?
What bishop was that then? Only wondering from an authenticity point of view.
Lol you will never get a priest to name his Bishop, diocese or his own name on here. They are all chicken. It’s strange really, with the cult, sorry, church as charitable as they say it is they can’t possibly have any retribution to fear!
Charity is the last these liars practice.
2.58: Mr Carta, if you get out from behind your laptop and out of your small, cocooned, selfish little world, you’ll discover that, YES, many priests carry out visitation of the sick and housebound on a regular basis, visit parishioners in hospital, care for the homeless, give assistance to many who call to their door, visit those in prison, seek necessary support and counselling for addicts who ask for help….(apart from their other duties)…the only difference between them and Pat is they don’t stand on the rooftops and proclaim their good deeds in Christ. It is sufficient to know that Our Heavenly Father sees the good works….That certainly is enough for me. Please learn TRUTH, you anonymous laptop bully.
Well, these priests don’t need to make any such proclamations, do they? They have stooges to do it for them. People like you.
Incidentally, I’d visit the sick and housebound, too, and hospitalised parishoners, if they made it worth my while financially.
Why do you think many of those you lionise get off their useless, flabby arses? Did you really think charity motivated these parasites?
You probably did. But then, what is a stooge for?
4.23: Magna, you prove again how the right decision was made by authorities to fling you out of the seminary. God’s holy people were spared an ugly, abusive tyrant. Your narrative is, of course, THE LIE, perpetuated by you out of anger, dysfunctionality and vengeance. You are very capable of making rational, intelligent and challenging commentary but the thrust of your commentary is coarse, ugly, insidious and all too often hate-inciting. Sadly, your kind of anonymous, poisonous trolling and bullying abuse is responsible for many people taking their lives, as in the recent case of Miss Flack. You are the silent laptop bullies who would not say to a person face to face what you so easily print from a private forum. Cowardly bully but I keep you in prayer.
Oh, I’m sure YOUR prayers rise high.
As high as the ceiling of your dingy livingroom.
4.42: Isn’t it so easy to press your hate buttons, supreme hater? Oh, if only you lived in a normal living room, with nirmal interaction with nirmal people, you’d be a lukeable human being. Sadly, the rottenness and misery of your life weave their way into your words. God will come to your help if you ask him. Honestly Maggie.🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗 – now down on your knees.
Poor Magna can’t engage in appropriate discourse and argue a point, he needs to resort to personal insults. what a tool ! 🤣🤣🤣🤢
4.34: Very good comment. Magna, take note.
Pappy Franko is now making it compulsory for young clerics training for the diplomatic corps to do a year on the missions as part of their training.
The prancing parish dodgers, who inveigle their ways into being sent to this clerical elite, will dirty their panties at the thoughts of some dump in the African bush, or some shanty town in Latin America.
Imagine these scented, coiffed, cuff links wearing, starched-shirted and immaculate cassocked little pansies, with a bad dose of the squits, trying to aim their poor little raw red assholes over some hole in the ground behind a cactus. The CK underpants will be in some sorry state! 😂
What lovely images you conjure of these parasites. Sadly, they are highly unlikely to be the daily grind for most of them. In all probability, they will find themselves in highly congenial, administrative appointments (in keeping with the holy policy of best use of their intellectual talents of course) well behind the frontlines of dirt, poverty, degradation, and despair.
But hey!😃 They can always make that heroic boast when they return to the rarified world of Vatican City, and the like: I served on the Missions.
Image is EVERYthing to these parasites.
5.03: Poisonous jealousy. Futile anger. The sentiments of a mad, crazy crank head.
This Magna keeps getting worse and worse. Pat, could you not email him and help him out in some way?, .i.e with mental health services or referral
You’re going great guns today, Magna, great stuff.
Strange how these priests manage to take such time out of their busy schedules to post on here.
Or could Monday be golf or sauna day!
5.39: How’s your sauna going? Great “crack” I’m sure! Idiot.
Daniel 6 – Daniel in the Den of Lions –
‘’It pleased Darius to appoint 120 satraps to rule throughout the kingdom, with three administrators over them, one of whom was Daniel… Now Daniel so distinguished himself among the administrators and the satraps that by his exceptional qualities… They could find no corruption in him, because he was trustworthy and neither corrupt nor negligent. Finally, these men said, ‘’We will never find any basis for charges against this man Daniel unless it has something to do with the law of his God.’’ … So the Metropolitan gave the order, and they brought Daniel out and threw him into the Lions’ den. A stone was placed over the mouth of the den, and the Metropolitan sealed it with his own signet! … Daniel was not devoured, and the Lord protected him throughout his ordeal, to the very end!
I see Magna is up to his normal drug and alcohol fuled rants to cover up his own inner anger , pain , and being empty of love , and anything positive to give to the church , and the world . And to think our tax is paying for his benefits so he is free to serve his diet of poison every day .
he could get free treatment under the health system.
On the contrary, I could give something supremely positive to the Church; and I don’t doubt the Church would be supremely thankful to me. It was inspired by the bold claim of Archimedes. You know, when he said that, given a long-enough lever and a strategically placed fulcrum, he could move Earth.😀
I shouldn’t be seeking to move Earth; nothing so ambitious. Just to move something right off it. Can you tell what it is yet?😄
Give me a wide-enough broom, and a temporary suspension of the Law of Gravity, and I’ll sweep every RC clerical parasite off the planet and into the fartherest reaches of Space.
It’s a modest, and holy, ambition.😎
6.45: Magna… an ambition you’ll never achieve. Why? Because your talk is cheap and easy. You will continue to write and speak behind your pseudonym – hidden and anonymous. When you have the moral courage, which you want us to believe you possess, and in a public, face to face encounter with clergy, say these wirds, only then will you be a hero and be taken seriiysly. Until then you are pissing too much in the wind and a miral coward. You are, the ugly coward who sits happily behind a laptop and throws out venomous judgments and abusive language. All futile. I thank God for the opportunities given to me day after day to actually effect change and make a difference to others through priesthood. Yes, indeed, your talk is easy and cheap.
I’m sorry. I don’t mean to be rude by laughing at you, but you should have read your post with greater self-awareness.
😅 Oh, dear. There I go again, laughing at you.
The thing is: how the hell can you accuse me of ‘cheap and easy’ words with a post like yours?😅
Off topic but of intetest;
Ms. Elizabeth Coppin, a survivor of three different Magdalene laundries, has taken a case to the UN’s Committee Against Torture, arguing the Irish State was ‘ complicit in her arbitrary detention and mistreatment ‘.
The committee said that Ireland must answer the allegations made by Ms. Coppin and respond within four months.
There are potentially significant legal implications in this case pending judgement.
6:57 Another potential tsunami brewing on the horizon.
And, the Rcc wonder why they’re becoming irrelevant.
Human rights violations and torture! Hint hint , lads!
“Restrict bishops, priests and religious… ”
Banning them from the “gents” would be a step in the right direction, Bp Pat.
Speaking of ‘down on your knees’, when are the clergy, hierarchy and Rcc faithful, going
to get down on their knees, to publicly repent for the past and present institutional sins,
corruption and criminality?
I have witnessed such acts of ‘repentance’ by priests. One of them prostrated himself before an altar. I accept he meant well, even if his conduct was a little showy in my opinion.
I said ‘repentance’ because these acts were only symbolic, really; they couldn’t be more, because a single priest has no power to turn to repentance the entire institutional Church. It is fundamental and universal change here that is required and crucial, change in terms of theological understanding of ministerial priesthood, and in terms of structure and governance of the institution.
But, I’m suggesting the lot of them in this country, North and South, not just tokenism by a priest, or a few priests.
Abuse has gone on in every diocese.
I take your point. But wouldn’t an island-wide act of clerical ‘repentance’ just be tokenism, too, but on a grander scale?
There is a difference between an act of contrition and an act of repentance. Contrition is the expression of sorrow for wrongdoing, but repentance expresses actual turning away from the offending conduct. None of these men, however contrite they might be, has the authority to repent on behalf of the institutional Church. So a public and collective act of repentance by them would be meaningless, and utterly untrue.
Think Magna needs an Exorcism . He is so pull of hatred it can not be from any good source –
Goose alert @ 8:57pm.😝
God needs exorcism too, then, because he is full of hatred as well.
Read Hosea, and Psalm 5
Are the police reinvestigating the Raphoe Diocese following the Tg4 programme last october?
How would I know that the RC cult and its functionaries were truly repentant of the harm they have caused to children and others with their abuse?
I would see evidence that they realise that *nothing* can ever ‘put this right’. I would certainly not see the self-satisfied smarminess I see on here.
I would see clerics walking out (they would be the few good ones) and the church falling over backwards to put itself out for its victims.
The church does not understand what it has done, does not appreciate the harm and is certainly not sorry and I include in this, YOU who are reading this now.
Can’t stop laughing at the RCC enablers tonight. If only it was righteous indignation. Methinks Magna is hitting too close to the truth for them
10.02: You seem all confused. Sorry but I can’t follow your comment.
How can Eamon Martin live with himself after the behavior of his Maynooth seminarians . Pat will Eamon provide a public apology to this Diocese.