In his liturgical traipse around the streets of Armagh Amy Martin was displaying a very clericalized and paternalistic theology of the Presence of Jesus.
Jesus Himself never used the term “The Real Presence”. It has come out of the mouths of Roman Catholic men and theologians.
The RCC wants to emphasise that Jesus is as physically present in the Blessed Sacrament as He was on the streets of Nazareth or Jerusalem.
I believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. I always have.
But when two or three gather to pray – in say, their own living room, The Real Presence of Jesus is there too – “Where two or three gather together in my name I am in their midst”.
Some RCC’s might say that Jesus is spiritually present in that sitting room?
But when it comes to talking about God there is nothing more real as His spiritual presence. After all God is spirit.
But what the RCC men are really saying is: “He may be spiritually present in your sitting rooms – but folks, we have his skin and his blood cells and we have them locked away in our big gold tabernacles”.
“And what’s more – we will only give you little bits of Him if you so everything we tell you”.
“And if you don’t behave as we say, we will not give you any little bits of Him”.
“And if you are as bold and disobedient as that bad Pat Buckley we will excommunicate you – and for your whole life we will never give you a little bit of Jesus”.
And that was the mindset of poor old Phonsie in Waterford the day he refused me Holy Communion in front of a packed funeral church.
You see the bishops and priests think they own the Body and Blood of Jesus and they will only give you a bit if you meet their criteria and conditions.
Of course the problem I present them with is that once they made me a part of their caste and gave me the power to make the Body and Blood of Jesus – a power which they can never take back.
So when they say to me: “You can’t have our bits of Jesus” – I say back to them – “I don’t need your bits of Jesus because I can make my own. That really infuriates them. It disempowers them.
Simple Catholics think the that pope or the bishops can stop you being a priest or eject you from priesthood. Not true. Even their own theology does not say that.
When a priest, like Brendan Smyth is “dismissed from the clerical state” it only means he is no longer a cleric. But he remains a priest. And he even retains the obligation to administer the Last Rites to someone in danger of death if no other priest is available.
So we need a whole new look at the theologies of priesthood and the Eucharist.
We need to find ways to express the fact that Jesus is not owned by the priests, that His other forms of Presence are as REAL as His Eucharistic form.
Put simply, we must release Jesus from the PRISONER OF THE TABERNACLE – whose jailors are bishops and priests!
66 replies on “WHERE IS THE REAL PRESENCE OF JESUS?FREE THE NAZARETH ONE!”
Whatever happened to your “it’s not a time to be nasty”? It didn’t even last a day with your pathetic “Amy” nonsense which says far more about you. What a silly, immature, myopic and bitter article. No doubt, as usual, it will be the usual troll-bait and we can expect another deluge of venom.
Amy will always be Amy and grow more and more into her Amyness. She is Catholic Amish 😉
MagnaTroll at 3:17pm –
You’ve been commenting like this “from the get go” eh and “suffering the p*** take for it? Awww diddums.
No you haven’t been commenting like 2:21pm MagnaTroll. That poster sounds like a sensible, decent and reasonable person. The exact opposite of your vitriol, nastiness, bitterness and lies.
On YouTube there is a “Catholic Eucharistic flash mob” in the centre of Preston. A Franciscan friar brought the host and monstrance and Preston being Catholic, many people knelt. It’s really very moving.
She is a quasi gay icon.
Have you been n the gin again? the AB of Armagh dis what he did. to try and bring comfort. While i disagree in him dressing in his archbishop regalia to this he would have been more authentic if he did this in his ordinary priest clothes like our parish priest fr, brian did it in leixlip over 3dats as our parish is big and even the walkers can’t ever it in a day…
Oh, spare us the narrative that + Armagh, and your priest in Leixlip, are doing this to bring comfort to the people. No ! It’s is more about them, and taking the opportunity to bolster their position and power. I also ask the question about whether this self-serving ceremonial wandering through the streets is in line with the advice and requirements of the present health crisis. Should they not rather be showing example by obeying the advice and staying at home. I’d have more respect for that than this circus they are embarked on. They might be surprised to hear this, but they are not essential / emergency services !
Anonymoussays: — 30th Mar 2020 at 12:07 am – the AB of Armagh dis what he did. to try and bring comfort. …
Yes. And here’s a news’photo of the AB bringing comfort –
Looks like the two women on the ground are also suffering from the same attention whore deficit disorder (AWDD) as Amy.
Just some info, Bp Pat. I don’t think a Positive Airway Pressure (CPAP) device would cost as much as £80K. A breathing aid that can help keep coronavirus patients out of intensive care has been created in under a week. University College London engineers worked with clinicians at UCLH and Mercedes Formula One to build the device, which delivers oxygen to the lungs without needing a ventilator.
According to Vanessa Feltz (Radio London), the UCLH/F1 team can produce a thousand machines a day if approved.
Bp Pat, unless stricter lockdown measures are introduced, I imagine Abp Turtle will try to repeat her attention-seeking stunt the other day. She’ll do anything for people to look at her.
I imagine all the other Irish bishops will be busy polishing their Monstrance in case they do a similar solitary mince like Amy. This video may help them get it right.
Elsie must be furious, Bp Pat, she never thought of it. She can mince down Ambrosden Avenue with the best of them.
I read this question-and-answer, Bp Pat, which will also apply to priests and seminarians… who usually like a big one, if you catch my drift.
Q: Can I get coronavirus by touching someone else’s penis?
A: If you are going to touch each other’s genitals it’s likely that you will potentially be kissing at the same time – and we know the virus is passed through saliva. Essentially, any possibility of transfer of coronavirus – from your mouth to your hands, to genitals, to someone else’s nose or mouth – increases the risk of passing on coronavirus. We want to cut this back to the absolute minimum. So, no contact between a partner that you’re not living with is really important.
Your still very sore about being kicked out Pat. Don’t be, it’s the best thing that happened to you, imagine still being in, closeted and having to toe the party line with some idiot like Phonsie as your Bishop. They set you free.
‘For they sow the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind.’
It seems Cahal Daly’s successor is on the receiving end of that. LOL.
SWEET SWISHER: : I have long thought that the Roman Catholic teaching and theology about the eucharist was well over cooked, hyped up, and over inflated. There is no doubt that an underlying motive in the development of such a high eucharistic theology was for the endowment of exclusivity and specialness of a particular class – namely the clerical class. Only they could ‘confect’ the species, only they had control over it, only through them was it to be ministered to the faithful. This is all about control, influence and power. It has no grounding in reality. + Armagh’s cavorting with the monstrance through the streets of the city was just a last gasp attempt to retake this high ground of influence and power at a time when people are at a low point and fearful. That is cynical.
I still believe in the Christian experience of the eucharist, but let us not hype it up in to something that it is not. Yes, it is a way of coming together as community, as a way of remembering and memorialising the life and example of Jesus. It is simply not right to endow it with so much contrived, pious, twee nonsense invented for the purposes of the clerical class and their ends
SS: Your comment in my view is a succinct and accurate analysis. I am particularly struck by how clearly you point out the clerical exceptionalism at the heart of so much that is wrong with the RCC.
But I believe it is the same with purveyors of religion the world over.
Where is the Real Jesus, you ask? Truly Present in the Blessed Sacrament. Truly Present in the Eucharist. Truly Present when two or three gather in the name of Jesus. Truly Present in the living, caring, sacrificing, loving, forgiving and generosity for the good and well being of one another. Truly Present when Christians emulate Christ. I know of no one in my life who claimed that they aline iwn or posses Christ. I think it’s regrettable that you chose a gesture of spiritual communion with people as given by Archbishop Martin to write a peculiar, twisted interpretation of his gesture and to claim you alone have the right approach. It is sad that each day the CORONAVIRUS gives you an open season to discredit all clergy in their efforts to connect with parishioners, however it is done. Encouragement and affirmation are needed in these days of trial and suffering. All of us are part of the necessary effort to sustain one another positively at this time.
Amy’s Eucharist traipse was her saying; “You folk have abandoned the True Church which possesses the Ultima Christi which I contain in this gold device and God has sent this pestilence upon you as a punishment. Kneel before the true Successor of Saint Patrick and your scarletness will become as white as snow”.
You’re being disingenuous. The institutional Roman Catholic Church, by speaking of the ‘Real Presence’ and by encouraging Catholics to come before the Tabernacle to pray, is implicitly pointing up the presence of Jesus here rather than elsewhere.
True, the word ‘Real…’ is not in itself a denial of the reality of Jesus’ presence in other manifestations: the epithet ‘Real…’ arose as a reaction to the theological dissension that emerged during the Protestant Reformation, especially to the emergence of the claim by Reformers that Eucharist was merely a symbol of Jesus’ presence rather than a transubstantiated and corporeal manifestation of him. But continuing inter-ecclesial politics and oneupmanship would ensure a sort of theological snobbery in the RCC, in which its possession of Eucharist was not only believed to be superior to all others, but in various ways, proclaimed as such.
10.53: Pat, are you on strong hate medication? Archbishop Martin’s prayer and spirituality is of a greater integrity than yours. You are just do ignorant. Utterly sick to be spewing out your obnoxious poison. I suspect YOU are the only person in the land who is engaging in destructive, hate inciting bloggery. You are in the bottom of your barrel. Seriously. Abd you want us to believe you are of Christ?
In the very early church, there was no teaching on the Eucharist as it is known today. No theology of substance and accidents (no transubstantiation); no belief in the real presence of Christ in the constitutive elements of the eucharistic meal. In other words, ‘it was bread and wine that was consumed; nothing more.
The meal (and it was considered just this; not an offering) happened without a confecting priest: ordinary people organised the meal among themselves, simply, and in one another’s homes, not in churches; there was no ordained priesthood. The gatherings were small and intimate, with no formal presider.
The belief was that the meal symbolised (yes, SYMBOLISED, by anticipation, communion with the Lord in the Parousia, which all present believed was imminent. There would, at least in the early years (before the Gospels were writren down), great expectatory joy on those occasions; we can only imagine the scene. Jesus was present, they would have said, but not corporeally, and invisibly, but not substantially in the bread and wine.
Then along came the Hellenists, Greek-encultered converts to Christianity; they began to theologise the meal. They made Jesus’ presence on the occasion not invisible and not separate from the bread and the wine, but connected to them; Mark’s gospel, the first chronologically, makes this clear. Jesus, therefore, was corporeally present to them, though it seems consubstantially, that is, ‘as body and blood, but TOGETHER WITH the bread and the wine’. This aligns theologically with current Anglican teaching on the Eucharist, as opposed to Roman Catholic teaching, which has Jesus present physically and spiritually under the accidents (or appearance) of bread and wine.
Thank you Magna. It’s informative and enlightening to have a historical perspective.
I’ve long thought the whole RC teaching on transubstantiation a preposterous concept. Cathbots however will no doubt cling to childhood indoctrinated beliefs, perhaps as a kind of comfort blanket.
Consubstantiation was coined by Martin Luther the Reformist. Both the species of bread and wine co-exist with the body and blood of the risen Lord (which is sensible: why should the bread completely change? God’s creation is beautiful and God took on flesh in the incarnation…).
The Anglican’s have no official / solid definition on the Eucharist; they do have the 39 Articles of faith though.
Low-church Anglicans believe in Transignification: the meaning / significance, in the ‘here and now, is what becomes ‘significant.’ The bread now reveals God’s sacramental presence among His people; however, that which is left over is often discretely and respectfully consumed – sometimes even thrown in the bin (The party/celebration is over, now…. their intention is Not at all disrespectful – it makes perfect and logical sense, even to me, a High church kinda guy. It is the intention – not the action – that matters in this particular respect).
High-church Anglican’s believe in the real presence of the risen, conquering and glorified Lord in the Eucharist; we reserve the consecrated sacramental Holy Eucharist Host in our tabernacles.
Remember, Sacramentals always involve elements: water, oil, bread etc.
Christ said: This is my body; this is my blood.’’
We cannot survive without elements: oxygen, water, food etc., so it makes sense that God gives Himself as Food for the journey; He gives us His very essence. ‘’We are called to become partakers of the divine nature.’’
We Catholics believe the consecration is a profound, mystical and incomprehensible mystery — Hence the word Sacrament / Mysterium.
After the priest says the Dominican words, it ‘Just is. Simples.
The supreme sovereign, unapproachable elevation of the infinite Being above all creatures : and on the other hand, holding forth the hope, as no other religion has ever ventured to do, of the possible union of the loftiest and the lowest, and the lifting of the creature into perfect, harmonious eternal loving union with God Himself…
In fact, He lowered Himself to be with us! If that’s not true love, then I don’t know what is.
Hope this helps a little x
Liverpool: This may well be some kind of interpretation or “explanation ” within your belief framework, and of course you’re perfectly entitled to your beliefs. For my part I think it’s the most convoluted totally crazy load of hogwash imaginable.
10.35: When O Lord will Pat Buckley learn a little respect, tolerance and kindness of heart? Fill his heart with mercy, humility and understanding. Put a stop to his hating others. His abusing of the CORONAVIRUS to snipe at his enemies and slam hatefully is contemptible and shows him to be utterly bereft of basic human decency. Lord, stop this menace from furthering hurting others.
Hello Fr. Mumsy.
You sound even so holy, humble and pious today unlike two weeks ago when the misogynist side to your personality was on show hurting me.
I hope your wee problem is healing.
As you rightly say “what the RCC men are really saying is: “He may be spiritually present in your sitting rooms – but folks, we have his skin and his blood cells and we have them locked away in our big gold tabernacles” – that they own Him and have total control of Him.
Cardinal Sarah , currently the Roman Papacy’s ‘Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship’, refers to the priest as not just another Christ, but rather, as Ipse Christus (Christ himself).
For myself I now believe that Christ is present whenever two or three are gathered in His name.
The Lord’s Supper was instituted at a ritual Passover meal when Jesus and his apostles had eaten a meal of lamb in commemoration of the lambs that had provided the very first Passover meal and whose blood on the door lintels had protected the Israelite families from the Angel of Death.
It’s never been suggested that the lambs eaten at the annual Passover commemorations transubstantiate into those first lambs.
Some clerical comments are very eager to hide the fact that clergy have called each other by women’s names for yonks.
I think the local PSNI Inspector / Superintendent should have a word with this Archbishop and suggest that he desists from antics like this. I mean, next you’ll have the local Orange Order Grand Master out walking around in his sash and bowler hat and umbrella giving witness to the Union. Where would it stop ? So, I think, dear Archbishop, that you should stay home like the rest of us at present. Lots of time in the future to hold eucharistic processions.
Wonderful analogy @ 11:18, and perhaps a Lambeg drummer following the Grand Master to bring more attention?
Come to think of it: maybe the Priests could accompany the archbishop’s circus show with celestial song next time!
Trying to take advantage of a frightened population.
Off topic but important info:
Bp Pat, I’ve heard they’ve changed the words of the Lambeth Walk at Gaynooth in honour of Amy. They’re all singing it!
THE WINDMILL MINCE
Any time you’re Windmill way
Any evening, any day,
You’ll find us all
Doin’ the Windmill Mince. Oi!
Ev’ry little Windmill gay
With her little Windmill pal,
You’ll find ’em all
Doin’ the Windmill Mince. Oi!
Ev’rything free and easy,
Do as darn well pleasey,
Why don’t you make your way there?
Go there, stay there,
Once you get down Windmill way
Ev’ry evening, ev’ry day,
You’ll find yourself
Doin’ the Windmill Mince. Oi!
Here the instrumental to sing along with…
While your at it: Help Free Melania!!
Bp Pat, before covid-19, this is Amy’s usual idea of “social distancing!”
Father Rory’s smiling because he’s just back from a little wander up the Capitoline.
ROMAN CATHOLIC QUEERDOM, AND LYING TO THE SO-CALLED ‘FAITHFUL’, there is nothing on Earth quite like it.😕
LEVI 501: There are far more serious things to be debating at the moment than how the Archbishop of Armagh walks, talks, lisps, minces….whatever. Just like there are far more important things to discuss than the arcane theology of the eucharist and the real presence. Important though they are to some people.
So, let me introduce a theme that is beginning to emerge and be heard. Is our response the correct response to CV ? Is the cure worse than the sickness. Is the damage that is being and is going to be done socially and economically worse than the human / life loss ? It’s a stark and harsh thing to talk about, but people are beginning to discuss these things.
The argument goes like this. We have come to realise that medium to long term closing down of our economies and societies is going to have catastrophic damage on the economy and society for many decades and generations to come. If you are in your 20s and 30s you could still be living with the consequences of this for the rest of your lives. In itself, the consequences will affect every aspect of life and society, including human life and loss. Some considerable damage is already being done by the short term measures. One could argue that these measures were necessary in the first instance and unavoidable in order to get to a position where we have gained a bit of time and a breathing space in which to make medium and long term decisions. That is where the difficult debate and decisions will come in. We are almost there.
I am not arguing, nor is anybody else I think, that we just give up on
Granny, old people and vulnerable people in the interests of the majority. The argument will need to be more nuanced and subtle than that. It is quite understandable that we lay great store on the value of human life. Indeed, the RC Church has a very powerful seamless theology of life which values human life from conception to death. However, as in any moral situation, it is often a question of achieving the greatest good in the midst of competing moral claims and doing the least harm and the best one can do. This current debate is all about this. Do we mortgage / undermine / ruin society and the lives of billions (which will include loss of life when social and health opportunities in the future are diminished by the consequences) in order to protect at all costs the live of some older and vulnerable people, or do we try to protect society for the long term, accepting that there is a price to pay ?
These are really difficult discussions to have, and they embrace morality, ethics, theology, values, human life etc. They are the debates that you will begin to hear in the next few weeks. I would want our various bishops to participate in these debates. I would prefer to see + Armagh and + Westminster talking about this stuff rather than processing the streets with a monstrance. Are they up to it ? Can they give leadership ? Can they come up with a theology of the CV crisis ? Are they capable of talking cogently and rationally about these issues, rather than just trotting out some sentimental saccharine claptrap that we hear so often from them ? I do hope so.
Wow! What a thought provoking contribution.
Bishop P. at 3.02
I have been commenting along these lines from the get-go…and suffering the p*ss-take for it. Not from you, granted, but from others.
Don’t get too carried away, Bp Pat, scandal, gossip, and tittle-tattle is still your main stock-in-trade for most blog readers.
2.21: This is the kind of real discussion and debate we will be forced to have. For some time I have requested this blog cease the usual nonsensical comnentary which only brought out the worst in people. Commenting on what any priest/bishop did/didn’t do elicited horrible nastiness. The words traded back and forth were very destructive and unnecessary in this coronavirus crisis. That aside, the questions you ask will be the focus of our conversations soon. The moral and ethical questions will hit us very soon. In talking with friends and colleagues there is a deep sense that we are changed forever about the meaning of life, our place in the universe, our care for the earth, our priorities about the value of each human life, the care for our vulnerable, sick, fragile, elderly and all who are on the edges, those on the outside, as It were. Life as we have known it IS changed irrevocably. We each now have a responsibility to engage differently, creatively and imaginatively about life in all its dimensions. The religious insights – morally, philosophically, ethically, – must have a role in this conversation. Already there is much analysis and commentary engaging in the questions you ask. The nonsensical attacking of particular people with sneering mockery is unacceptable. Let us have urgent and meaningful debate. Thank you for this essay which is superb.
2:21 & 4:39
The world as we know it is rapidly changing before our very eyes. All are participants in this change process. All affected forever. We have moved from a pre-covid- to a covid-to be followed by, a post -covid, global community. I think you are correct- everything will be up for discussion. Debates are already taking place online by serious commentators from various disciplines.
Yes, life as we know it is changed irrevocably. Having said that, life was irrevocably changed for me, as for thousands of survivors of clerical abuse worldwide. What has been the response of the Catholic Church? What has been the pastoral response to survivors? What guiding documents has the Vatican produced for bishops and priests? What theology of abuse did bishops come up with? What moral, theological, philosophical, ethical, religious insights as well as questions related to priesthood and seminary training?
In the current crisis can bishops give leadership? Can they be taken seriously? Are they credible ? Have they comprised themselves? Can they create a theology of CV?
Highly unlikely, if their track record on CSA and abuse of vulnerable adults is anything to go
Do you really think the likes of + Armagh and + Westminster are going to be able to credibly contribute to such a debate, give leadership, give theological insight (and I don’t just mean some pious uttering) ? I don’t have confidence. As someone said, their response to CSA has been lamentable, late, and lacking. They have barely ‘got it’ about CSA. I doubt if they have ‘got it” about CV. I’ve heard nothing.
Anon@2:21: Congratulations on one of the most balanced and thought provoking comments I’ve seen in the five years I’ve followed this blog.
I personally don’t think for a moment that the RC hierarchy are in any way up to meeting the challenges.
Off topic but very important:
There’s growing pressure on the head of the W.H.O. Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus to resign over his handling of the coronavirus pandemic.
There’s an online petition gaining traction. N.B. Check out his backgound.
Ahh I think that Archbishop Eamon and his priests bringing Our Lord even closer to the Communities during these times of fear and uncertainty is lovely. This Eamon guy possibly could be a break in the mould! There is always hope.
What a beautiful, non-selfish act of profession of faith; imagine how many little old ladies (and queens) would be lifted up and filled with joy at this act of love and solidarity.
Good on you +Eamon
Is that a wedding ring? Blah blah
You are either a faghag or a fagstag by the sounds of things.
Headlines: https://spirit-digest.com 30/03/2020
1. The $2 Trillion Dollar Coronavirus Stimulus Bill Mandates That A High-Tech ‘Surveillance And Data Collection System’ Be Created To Track US Citizens
2.Czech microbiologist, inventor of test to identify Corona, says virus genetic code modified in Laboratory unknown if modification resulted in more virulence
3. Hollywood Is A Den Of Parasites Who Feast On Blood Of Kids: Mel Gibson
I have neither love nor respect for Roman Catholic priesthood. But have a care: Eamon Martin, despite the moral faults we all share as humans, may have been hid liberation.😬
Headlines: https://www.spiritdaily.com 30/03/2020
1. A THOUSAND WORDS: ICONIC IMAGES EMERGE OF GREAT CONTAGION
2. Spain calls for ‘hibernation,’ Russia closes borders, Italy sees hope;Trump extends shutdown for a month ;How many really died in Wuhan?
3 .How afflictions cause us to grow spiritually
‘In order to recover from this grievous wound, the Church in Ireland must first acknowledge before the Lord and before others the serious sins committed against defenceless children’
‘Only decisive action carried out with complete honesty and transparency will restore the respect and good will of the Irish people towards the Church to which we have consecrated our lives. This must arise, first and foremost, from your own self-examination, inner purification and spiritual renewal. The Irish people rightly expect you to be men of God, to be holy, to live simply, to pursue personal conversion daily.’
Pope Benedict xvi Pastoral Letter To The Catholics of Ireland. 19 th March 2010.
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Are posters brave enough, and imaginative enough, to imagine a world FREE of Romanist clerical parasites (er , persons?)?
6.53: I share your disappointment and regret about the church’s response to Child Sexual Abuse. It was reckless, irresponsible and criminal, as has been shown in reports. There are many, many – countless perhaps – who are still suffering and in pain. I can only hope they find some healing and justice. In these days of the CORONAVIRUS, I imagine survivors are feeling traumatised. I do feel that the Church’s moral teachings have something worthwhile to offer in any discussion about creating a new world order. However, despite individual bishops giving messages of hope and some comfort through their websites and webcam masses, I am astonished and utterly dusappointed that the hierarchy has not made any significant gesture together as a sign of solidarity with all who are suffering. I emailed the 4 Archbishops today to express my dusgust. I know parishes, insofar as is possible, are giving some financial and material support to families in need but we need an urgent expression of solidarity from our hierarchy. All has changed and will change even more for each one of us. When we are able to reconnect with one another and when our Churches are open again, life cannot be as it was before. A deep, reflective thinking is required. The earth, our common hold is telling us in this quietened and painful time – stop, reflect, pray, care, live more compassionately. I trust in God to help us at this time – all of us.
Jesus did not create a hierarchy, but servanthood.
I live in Down and Connor, but I do not regard Noel (Spending Millions) Treanor as my hierarch. 😀
3.17: Mags, you haven ‘t been arguing such issues. You are delusional. You have disgracefully used this blog to spout out hatred of priests. You may have tried to be rationally and calmly intelligent but your frequent and ugly sentiments and abusive language have discredited any opinion you have on anything. If you were a sober and calm person, you’d be more appreciated.
I did, actually, try to argue such issues, but it probably went over your head. 🤧
10.22: Magna – all washed uo. STFU for ever.
We have retired professionals for a variety of backgrounds responding to the Covid-19 crisis in a variety of ways.
Have any retired Bishops anything to say on the current crisis globally and within the Rcc?