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Irish Seminary Leaders Defy Vatican Ban, Welcome Gay Men Called to Priesthood

Ribert Shine. New Ways Ministeries. From November 17, 2019 6 months ago

St. Patrick’s College, Maynooth

Leaders of Ireland’s main seminary have said they would welcome gay men called to priestly ministry as long as the men remained celibate, a statement that contradicts the Vatican’s instruction banning gay men from being considered as candidates for priesthood.

Fr. Tomás Surlis, rector of St. Patrick’s College, Maynooth, and Fr. Declan Marmion, the school’s dean of theology, made their comments in an interview with The Irish Times:

“Asked whether a gay man who believes he has a vocation and is capable of living a celibate life would be accepted, Fr Surlis responded, ‘I would say, yes. The same issue arises for a man who identifies as homosexual as arises for a man who identifies as heterosexual’.

“Rev Marmion said: ‘I think we all know priests and bishops who are excellent ministers and make a great contribution to the church and society, who are gay but who are celibate. Being frank about it, I think that’s something we shouldn’t be afraid of saying.’

“He said Pope Francis does not have problem with gay priests.* ‘Does he have a problem with deep-seated homosexual tendencies or people supporting and actively involved in gay culture? Yes.’ But this view would also apply where heterosexuals were concerned, he insisted.”

These statements by Frs. Surlis and Marmion are significant because homosexuality at the seminary was a point of controversy just a few years ago. In 2016, anonymous reports from former students complained both that a “gay culture” existed but went unaddressed and that one seminarian was expelled after failing to report classmates who had engaged in same-gender sexual activity.

These disputes led two Irish bishops to withdraw seminarians they had assigned to study at the college. Dublin’s Archbishop Diarmuid Martin explained his decision to remove seminarians was in part due to “a homosexual, a gay culture, and that students have been using an app called Grindr.” [Editor’s note: Grindr is a gay dating app.]

Importantly, Martin has been deeply critical of the seminary system itself as well. Bishop Alphonsus Cullinan of Waterford and Lismore also withdrew seminarians. Other bishops, however, defended St. Patrick’s College, Maynooth.

But this controversy in 2016 prompted a discussion in Ireland about gay priests that was in many ways healthy and honest. One columnist at the time said reviewing how priests are formed could ““kickstart an authentic reform and renewal of Irish Catholicism.”

These latest remarks by seminary leaders may reflect such an internal reckoning about homosexuality, sexuality generally, and formation issues.

The leaders’ other comments in The Irish Times interview on issues of church reform, like lay leadership being a necessity with so few priests, support the idea that such reflection is occurring.

Most significant, however, is that by welcoming gay men to the seminary publicly, St. Patrick’s leaders are defying the Vatican’s ban on gay priests, which was reaffirmed in 2016.

These Irish leaders join their German counterparts in this defiance, and they align themselves with the many Catholics who recognize and affirm the good works that gay priests and seminarians offer the church.

PAT SAYS

I do not agree with the Vatican on sexuality or celibacy.

And that fine as I am not connected to the Vatican or the RCC.

But I cannot understand two RCC priest formators ignoring the rules of the organisation they belong to.

Neither Surlis and Marmion have the right to be paid for running an RCC seminary while ignoring the plain rules of HQ.

They are not being paid to form young men in Surlisism or Marmionism.

They are being paid to form them in Roman Catholicism.

What they are doing in causing confusion and opening the door to the kind of promiscuous gay sex that has become rampant.

Why are the Irish bishops allowing it?

Is it because they all need to keep the supply of seminarian rent boys topped up?

103 replies on “Irish Seminary Leaders Defy Vatican Ban, Welcome Gay Men Called to Priesthood”

+Pat. Grindr is not a gay dating app. It is an app simply for gay sex hook ups or for users to swap naked and sexual pictures.

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@9:33pm 07/06/20 & +Pat @10:01amThat is a misrepresentation! Grindr’s use is determined by the people using it. It covers the whole spectrum from dating to hook ups and the sharing of intimate photographs. You can specify what you are looking for and therefore not looking for, though that wont stop others hitting on you for those purposes or from sending you intimate photographs!

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im a good looking lad so I get messaged a lot on Grindr. most guys start off a conversation by sending intimate pictures as if this will entice me to message them back. I just block them.

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3.22

WT… ! 😲

I don’t have an Uncle Richard, so I could hardly post pics of him, could I?

Are you slow, or sumthin’? 😕

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Robert Shine is managing editor for “Bondings”, which ought to be up Moberley’s street!
Pat you are still suffering Rome withdrawal symptoms (RWS). Leave them to their inconsistencies which stretch far beyond sexual matters. They get more dishonest the more senior and central you get, so don’t worry about obedience to them. I agree it must be a double grief for you:
– such a huge proportion of your countrymen adhere(d)
– you devoted your life as long as you could to serving them within that context

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Pat, when you were a Romanist priest, did you subscribe to absolutely everything the Magisterium of the Church taught? Did you dot every doctrinal ‘i’ and cross every ‘t’?
I didn’t when I was in seminary; in fact, I never met a seminarian who did, or could.
The Magisterium is not the Church. True, it is the teaching authority of the Church; but where did Jesus say that it would never teach in error, even in grave error?
As a seminarian, I knew that magisterial teaching on capital punishment was profoundly wrong; and not just because it meant violating Jesus’ instruction on dealing with enemies, but also because it undermined the premise for the moral prohibition of abortion.
The teaching on capital punishment has been revoked, thankfully. And Ireland, North and South, now effectively has unrestricted abortion.

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No, I’m sure I did not cross evert t and dot every eye.
Bit any rule I broke was to help people in difficult situations.
But the breaking of the rule we are talking about today leads to widespread hurt, use and abuse of seminarians, priests and lay people, including vulnerable young men.

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Pat, I bet the last person you heard saying Romanist was the DUP councillirs on Larne Borough Council.

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😁 On election day in 1989 their megaphone all over the borough was: “Keep Rome out of Larne chamber” – even though by that stage Rome had dumped me for 3 years.

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11.15: Magna, did you not also learn in moral theology that bullying, harrassment, mental abuse, hatred and vengeance are crimes against the integrity of the human body? All abuses – including your abusive behaviour on this blog – are morally repugnant. You should re-visit some of your moral theology notes, the few you still may have before being flipped out of the seminary!!!

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8:21

What’s abuse by priests with cover up by bishops? 😝( Just askin,like) 😜
Revisit the notes !!!😂

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— Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
The magistrates of the earth set themselves; and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying:
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh… the Lord shall have them in derision…
Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure…
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me: Thou art my Son… this day have I begotten thee…
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
Be wise, now, therefore, O ye kings of the earth; be instructed, ye magistrates of the earth…
Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling…
Kiss the Son… lest he be angry… and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in the Lord.

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The Instruction on banning gay seminarians was a dead letter from day 1 as bishops, seminary rectors, and heads of religious orders made it clear that it would not mean excluding seminarians merely on the basis of sexual orientation.

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They were VERY public about their “interpretation”. Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor :”the Instruction is not saying that men of homosexual orientation are not welcome in the priesthood”. The US Conference of Major Superiors of Men: “Since the Instruction speaks directly about persons with homosexual tendencies, it is important to thank those religious who have been examples of celibate chastity and to remind us that we are brothers to one another.” Seamus Murphy, SJ: “The term ‘deep-rooted homosexual tendencies’ could refer to men conflicted about their sexuality and tempted to escape facing it through an emotionally immature option for the seminary.” Timothy Radcliffe, OP was perhaps the most influential voice in ensuring that the document would be taken as bearing on “affective maturity” rather than sexual orientation as such. The Surlis and Marmion interpretation is the mainstream one and it is ridiculous to make it seem some kind of revolt against Rome.

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Bishop Pat, I think you ‘nailed it’ in your closing remarks.
They are NOT applying the rules, regulations, directives, teachings of the institution, ordered
by HQ, Rome. ( Whether I accept these teachings, etc, is a separate matter.)
I assume they are paid, employed to teach in seminary?
This, then, leads to total confusion with the tolerance of promiscuous behaviour and
acceptance of completely unsuitable candidates for ministry. Many seem to only last a wet
week! All at a time in church history when the sexual abusive culture of cover up is ongoing
for 35 years in the public domain. Also, is the ‘seminarian rent boys’ issue a determining
factor is this debacle? If so, those involved need to have the integrity to resign.
Whatever you might say about Fr. Marsden, he was applying the rules, regulations, directives
and current teachings of the institution. So, why the hullabaloo?
Maybe their are far too many popes in the Rcc !

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3:02 pm

Oh, I know how intellectual positions develop, alright.
I also have knowledge of duplicitous behaviour of members of the hierarchy.
Would you like me to display such knowledge? I should think not.
I might create a hullabaloo!

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Romans don’t know what ‘chaste’ or ‘celibate’ mean (even if they do it without knowing). More than Romans don’t know what ‘gay’ means at any particular time. ‘Attraction’ should be redescribed as obsession. Obviously Rome doesn’t require or promote Holy Spirit belief. There are no virtues or gifts. There is no prudence or discernment. There are no vocations (of the genuine kind) because there is no laity.
Romans obsess with looking like they “obey” their “popes” but if they look like they don’t it’s with the same meaning – utterly shallow, there is no thinking. Romans don’t want their own to use their minds at all (at all).
The essence of Roman relating is bitchiness and bullying as manifested from Vatican quarters daily. We see how many seminarians they have inculcated this into (not all), how de rigueur it is if one is to rise up to VG and the like (with the odd exception I know in England).
The only raison d etre of Roman priesting is confecting. Since bad diplomacy there is no communion, therefore all attempts at so called eucharist are bad for consciences. Watch the mental integrity of a large chunk of public fall apart in front of your eyes in the coming months.
Seminary = conditioning, it isn’t putting men up on their own feet.

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That is bollocks. Men and women of any sexual persuasion are capable of ministering to men and women of any sexual persuasion. Ministry is about bringing Christ to each other – we probably won’t ever live in a world in which we don’t judge people according to their sexual orientation but we do at least need to try.

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What a drama queen you are sometimes, Bp Pat, instead you should be supporting these two men’s initiative.
Also, none of the seminarians appearing in Priest School looked like they sell themselves for money… or crack. Whichever the case may be.

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Priest School was a disgrace to say the least.
It will be very interesting how many of them are in Ministry in five to ten years times.
After all anyone with Gaydar feeling can point them out.
I know they are being watched very closely although all nice guys but not suited to the priesthood.
However sadly their formation is changing and there maybe NO Irish or Scots college Rome for year 20/21 they may have to all stay in the parishes or UK Seminaries or Maymooth.
the bishops sign out loud about priest School however they should listen to the Clergy and Lay faith about the drink and the “Relationship”.

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Back to school, Jim – the gay Irishman living in Scotland who can’t compose a post without mentioning bishops, archbishops, cardinals and nuncios.

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An Post and the Royal Mail will never go bust as long as Jim is around with his non-stop campaign to get people writing to nuncios, Cardinal Sarah and ++Southwark. ✍️🖨️⌨️📑📃📮📬🇮🇪🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

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3.07 and 3.44 Sorry Father if your upset and I am certainly not in Scotland.

And where does it mention any of our Episcopate @ 10.01

Here see us all in the flesh…… Spot ME !!!!!!!!

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4:19 pm

When is your Episcopate going to investigate the historical abuse of seminarians as well as the Maynooth situation ongoing for years? We need a PUBLIC INQUIRY!!!!!!
Guess who I AM???

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There is layer upon layer of irony in this matter of banning homosexual orientated men from entering seminary for training as priests.
Firstly, the very men in the Vatican who will have come up with this policy, including Benedict 16, are so often themselves of homosexual orientation. I do not think that there is any doubt that Benedict and his secretary Georg have a very close emotional and affectionate relationship, which may not be genitally physical, but comes out of a form of same sex love. You do wonder why people like this, and others in the Vatican, come up with discriminatory, prejudicial policies on homosexuality. The obvious conclusion, given the evidence of their own lives, is a form of transference and denial in which their own self-loathing is transferred on to those who are precisely like them.
Second, it has ever been the case that local Churches will ignore centralised Vatican teaching. This has happened throughout history, and even been tolerated by the Vatican. So, it is no surprise that in the developed western world, where there is greater understanding of the psycho-sexual make up of homosexual people, that the application of this Vatican prohibition will be somewhat less enthusiastic.
Finally, we all know that the ranks of the priesthood in England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland, and indeed beyond these shores, is populated by homosexual clergy, probably as many as 50 % and above. We see the evidence with our own eyes. Some will be celibate, others not. Some are very talented and pastoral ministers who bring great gifts to the priesthood. Where would be be without them ? We would end up with the allegedly avowedly heterodox type of clergy that have been featured on this blog over the last couple of days – rigorous, orthodox, anti gay, and right on ! God help us !

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There was a priest in Shrewsbury Diocese who was in the Sun a couple of years ago for being active on Grindr so maybe Bishop Davies needs to have a word with his clergy before he likens gay marriage to a Nazi regime, and of course there was the Shrewsbury priest arrested and charged with pedophila why ? Because his boyfriend who was living in the presbytery caught him !!! And the priest who was found to have abused a mentally handicapped girl for years

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Well, if you ever did see a self-loathing homophobe (with added depressive mental health) you are looking at Dark Mavis !

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I know I meet him the conversation was stilted to say the least, the joke is when people say he’s traditional he can’t say a word in Latin ! And he sends all his seminarians – the majority never lived for five minutes in his diocese – to Oscott!!! He’s the biggest supporter of Oscott there is, so he’s anti gay marriage but not anti gay seminarians, priests or places of formation I can’t see he’s ever done anything to support family life either if that’s what he thinks is best, it’s the trads who think he’s a saint I feel sorry for and Egan is exactly the same but more naive at least you could have a normal conversation with him

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At the moment secular authorities still pay lip service to religious organisations maintaining an opt out of the accepted mainstream secular culture of opportunity for all and removal of discrimination in pretty much every area of life. There are increasingly less and less places which are allowed to apply discriminatory and prejudicial policies and cultures.
In the UK it is the case now, I believe, that Catholic schools increasingly are not able to dismiss a teacher simply because of their sexuality, or indeed because of their so called lifestyle – for example living in a same sex relationship. Even within the Church some institutions have stood up against local bishops trying to get rid of teachers. This is the case in some Jesuit schools in the USA where local bishops have ordered that the school dismiss a valued teacher simply on the grounds of orientation and lifestyle.
I think it is only a matter of time when the secular states will decide that these opt outs are not longer admissible, and the Church and its institutions will be required to uphold the policies of the state if the Church wants to continue functioning there. It is encouraging, as well, to note the example of some Church institutions which stand up to homophobic bullying based on discrimination and prejudice – which is so often put forward by those doing it as simply being orthodox !

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America is the worst. They actually follow this dumb rule about not letting gays in. The results? Suppression and acting out inappropriately. The North American College in Rome is a chicken-hawk’s paradise. I’ve been there!

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The NAC in Rome always was a strange place. The don’t mention it, don’t ask, don’t tell policy in respect of homosexuality, which used to be mirrored in the US military as well, is a recipe for subterfuge, transference, denial, duplicity, dishonesty, living double and parallel lives. There is much damage done by cultures like that. You just wish that they would wise up and see human sexuality in all its forms as something creative and good which should be harnessed for the work of the gospel. My fear is that in places like the USA the direction of travel is backwards, with more entrenchment. From my experience of working in the USA, it is not a particularly pleasant culture to be in, even within the Church. There are groups of people who simply make it their business to catch you out and find any reason to accuse you of not being sufficiently orthodox. It’s exhausting having to deal with that.

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Maynooth is not fit for purpose and should be closed.

I imagine that in the situations where priests have used seminarians there was no set “fee”. The payback was jewellery, designer clothing, hotel stays, 5 star meals, a car or the use of a car, holidays to gay spots. And I’m sure there was no shortage of pocket money. And the big question – were church or parish funds used?

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10:23 am

Bishop Pat, I trust you have reliable knowledge on this issue.
Do you know if ordination was also a ‘reward’ for compliance or involvement?
Or if you don’t know, in your opinion, might it have been a ‘reward’ ?

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Many priests have been ordained because they did sexual favours to bishops and senior priests.
As in the McCarrick case, many priests have being made bishops for doing sexual favours for bishops.
A friend who spent years in Rome, and was sexually active there, told me: “The way to get promoted in the Catholic church is to do sexual favours for your superiirs”.

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To Clear up the issue was Church funds or Parish Funds.
Seminarians are the responsibility of the dioceses and therefore the diocese fund the Seminarians.
However where parishes play their part is usually annual collection or in some cases two, collection box usually at back of churches and of course Benefactors who leave a legacy for training for new Priests.
As for the items in Bishop Pat’s blog this will be up to the individual Priest how he pays his “Boys” but he would need to be careful as all accounts are the responsibility of Parish Finance Committees.
And some Parish priests struggle to get money out of some Committees .

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If it is a homomafia, as Bp Pat often describes it, it must be a racket by association with, for example, +Amy Turtle as the Godmother in this case.

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10:36 am

A whole new meaning to ‘vocation’ to the priesthood and religious life.

Is this ‘practice’ in the Rcc an historical issue or more recent development in ‘discerning’ vocations to priesthood?

What about women’s religious orders in the Rcc?

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Pat I think the church has lost great priests over the years with this rule. Brendan marshal and Michael Byrne to mention but two

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11:14 am

This is not simply about rules. This is also about corruption as well as the abuse of power if such a homomafia exists in the Rcc.

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A loud, high-pitched “Oh No!” was heard from Tooting Bec presbytery yesterday when Littleprick was informed about the comments on this site.

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We miss Littleton and his high-pitched “Oh No!” here at Wankersh. Nothing is like waking up in the morning to the sound of Littleton running down the Wallstreet corridor shouting “Oh No!”
Oh those were the hay days here at Wankersh.

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The only stalker here is you Anonymous 1:26. If I still had been in charge of pastoral at Wonersh I would have called you to my office immediately!

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Let’s face it, if they turned away gay applicants there would be no seminarians there at all and half the staff would have to go.

Anyway, isn’t Maynooth being turned into housing? I want first refusal on Paul Prior’s old apartment.

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My advice for Tom Surlis is come clean about your dark seedy connection with Peter O’ Kane. Now Tom did you watch wee Peter being thrusted upon in the Jacquizz or Dark room.

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Keep up the good work with this blog! It is a huge shame there is not a blog like this dedicated to what goes on in other institutional churches, or in the Independent Church Movement. They are often equally as bad if not worse.

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4:13
It’s not that difficult to interpret. Just add an apostrophe to the word ‘seminarians.’

‘Maybe because gay seminarians’ lived matter.’

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Posted on the 3rd of August when no seminarians are present in Maynooth. It appears to be fake or someone trolling.

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I think they are wrong about the pension, Pat. I’d get Sammy Wilson on to it. Every NI councillor accrues a councillor’s pension.

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Councillors who are members of the taxpayer- funded Scheme receive both retirement and death benefits for a flat contribution rate of 6% of their basic and special responsibility allowances. In addition, an employer contribution is paid by the local authority: which is taxpayer-funding.
You probably opted out of 6% contribution.

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I think he was an old fool. If the young many doesn’t hand the money over to the Rev’s family he is an absolute disgrace. Lots of this goes on in the RCC – old men shagging young men who ate often showered with lavish gifts form Parishioners money.

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8.09
He didn’t y’ know. When he and wot’s-‘is-name appeared on the Jeremy Kyle Show in 2018, he said that he, being old, was sexually inactive.
The arrangement between the pair was that wot’s-‘is-name, being at the time only 25 years old, could have sex with other guys provided he informed the old geezer first.

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8.18 is drunk with lots of typos there. Sigh.
Yes, no sign of any other bum sex happening in Churches? I expected more during COVID. Maybe all clergy are behaving? I am still disgusted by the
Glasgow story where the Priest caught with a dildo up is bum on the Altar is still in Ministry! Bless him. Alcohol involved I suspect.

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David Dysky and Sean Hickey. Silenced with a hush payout for injuries sustained. Pat its was contributed by half Maynooth and their home Diocese for the pay out.

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