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TRAGIC ABUSE IN CARMELITE TERENURE COLLEGE, DUBLIN.

TERENURE COLLEGE
John McClean

A former teacher and rugby coach has been sent to jail in the last couple of days for sexual abuse in one of Dublin’s most prestigious schools -Terenure College, run by the Carmelite Order.

Mc Clean abused at least 23 boys between the ages of 12 and 16.

I court he changed his plea to “guilty” on 27 counts.

The Carmelites and Terenure College have apologised for not protecting the abused boys better.

Our Dublin priest correspondent Father Bruno says:

FATHER BRUNO

“The overly prolonged search for justice for former pupils of Terenure College has begun with the conviction of John McClean for a ” career” of sexual abuse of teenage boys”.

A 1996 MEETING

The 1996 meeting (Irish Examiner).

Inspector Jason Miley today told Paul Murray SC, prosecuting, that in 1996 the father of one of the victims informed Father Robert Kelly, the then Provincial of the Carmelite Order in Ireland, about the allegation his son had made against McClean.

Inspector Miley said Fr Kelly had a number of meetings over the summer break with McClean during which it was made clear McClean would not be returning to Terenure College. McClean was granted a three-year career break and became a rugby coach at UCD.

Inspector Miley agreed with Mr Guerin that Fr Kelly had a note of one of the meetings with McClean in 1996 during which McClean admitted to the allegation.

Fr Kelly told gardaí when providing these notes to them during this investigation that he had no recollection of this, but if it was in the notes then “it was true”.

FATHER BRUNO AGAIN:

FATHER BRUNO

“In 1996, from records of the Carmelite province and school obtained by the prosecution, the provincial Fr Robert Kelly was fully knowledgeable of the criminal complaints made against the teacher. Today he had” no knowledge” of the complaints?

Was Archbishop Martin aware of the upcoming court trial date as he preoated to retire? What was his role in these matters prior to his retirement?

DIARMUID MARTIN

What has been the role of RICHARD PURCELL as chairman of the TOWARDS HEALING – the CORI service paid for by the religious orders to provide services of counselling to victims abused in church institutions?

PURCELL

Word has it that the Terenure old boy network has been getting the word out – “forgive and forget” – otherwise the “nure will close,”.

Much closer inspection of those senior staff and clerics at Terenure and provincial superiors during the last twenty years is required. Will it happen?

What of the various headmaster carmelites during McClean’s reign of terror. Where are they now? What did they know?

One who is no longer in the priesthood is very well known to have run with the fox and the hounds.

We can, very sadly expect more allegations to emerge.

PAT SAYS

I have no personal knowledge of Terenure College. I went to school and did my Leaving Cert in the much less prestigious Rathmines Tech down the road.

McClean’s reign if abuse was very bad and he behaved as if he had no fear of being foubd out or dealt with.

Was that because he was the rugby coach and these prestigious schools just love their rugby?

I’m amazed that after he was reported he simply got a three year teaching break and went on to work with other young men.

There does need to be a thorough investigation conducted into Terenure College.

What abuse happened?

What was covered up?

Who were all the players?

Maybe Father Bruno is right. Maybe there is a lot more to come?

108 replies on “TRAGIC ABUSE IN CARMELITE TERENURE COLLEGE, DUBLIN.”

Beautiful piece of music, just thought I’d share this, it’s better through speakers because of bass on organ x
Will read the blog this evening when I’m settling.
Love is His Word, Truth is His Way –
https://youtu.be/qw_LIIOARl4

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Fr Enda McDonagh R.I.P. he was one of the greatest theologians and quite the liberal and a thorn in the side of the Church Authorities – no blog on him Pat?

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He lived very comfortably in Maynooth for decades, so he was treated well, for someone alleged to be a thorn in the side. He was oh so brave, preaching to the gallery, while all the while parish dodging.

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11.21

‘Parish dodge’? Enda? That’s unfair. His particular intellectual talent suited him for a life of theological academe.

If we must speak in terms of vocation, then that was his.

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11:21
Did you have something against the man? Throw out a few more derogatory expressions. You’ll feel better, at least inthe short term.

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11:21 ”O, beware, my lord, of jealousy. It is the green-eyed monster, which doth mock the meat it feeds on” – Othello 3.3

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11.21: Try to get beyond your infantilic labelling. It is so unintelligent a phrase to use. Have you a grudge against the intellect of Fr. Enda? Gifts and charisms come in a variety of ways. Dr. McDonagh used his particular gifts totally in the right setting – academia. What the hell is wrong with twats and plonkers like you? Get a life or find more productive things to do – with your hands since you seem brain dead!!

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But he did not need to be a priest to be a theologian or be in academia?

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11.14
Pat, in 1950s Ireland the knly way a lay Catholic could study theology was at TCD.

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Once lay theologians became available Enda and other similar parish dodgers could have said to their bishops that they wanted to serve in a parish in their home diocese, rather than spending the next forty years living the baronial splendour of a resident priest on the Maynooth staff, as Paddy Corish memorably described his own gilded living arrangements.

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10:59 pm Thank you. I agree we should think further about his contribution which you rightly defined as ‘liberal’. His work was and remains important telling us that some good things have come from Maynooth. All this chatter about a cushy life, avoiding parishes misses the crucial point. Without theologians who challenge supposed orthodoxy we cannot have any train of thought that, however inadequately, finds its way to the laity and priests who need succour.

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10:27, he could have become an aeronautical engineer in his spare time, but it is what it is.

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There has to be a thorough investigation into Terenure College. I heard some of the victims/survivors speak and read an article by a former victim of McLean. It is obvious from listening to them that the entire staff community was aware of what was happening and knew of the sexual advancements and abuse by McLean. It was the source of jokes, innuendo and fun with pupils snd staff. Why did no member of staff, lay or clerical speak out? What excuses will the staff offer? Interesting. The abuse has destroyed many lives. I hope and pray they are helped in every way by the Carmelites. (I believe Pat that you should leave Abbot Purcell out of the frame). I also think your inference to Archbishop Martin is very mischievous. The entire community – clerical and lay – of Terenure College of the years of the abuse by McLean must answer many questions. My dealings and encounters with the Carmelites are ones of great positivity. This episode will not change my opinion but I am saddened that this abuse happened to young teenagers in one of their revered establishments.

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This is just another normal day in unholy slut church.
Tell people you’re ontologically changed while simultaneously allowing mortal sin, grievous crime and the lifetime effects of abuse on the children in your care.
These events are not the exception they are the NORM, hence the church is a criminal organization and should be treated as such.

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Hi Pat. I’m a little confused. “Our Dublin priest correspondent Father Bruno says:”. Who do you mean by “Our”? Sometimes when you simply cut and paste text from other publications, the source is not clear.

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What went on with the Carmelites in Moate still has to come out. Priests taking vulnerable boys from dorms at night to abuse them. I know one 11 year old boy who walked home from Moate to Kilmessan to escape. Parents complained, nothing done.

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2,51 Just a casual question about priests that can now trip lightly off the tongue about men who were so pure in their motives that in the small mid-land Irish town where i grew up in the fifties they had to feel the God in the most high had to give them a sign or a ‘vocation’, from heaven that they were destined to be ontologically changed. No human motive or ambition could grant any innocent country boy could decide such a future, It would take a baroque painter of the greatness of a Caravagigo or a Poussin to do justice to the transfiguration that brought about such a fate. Now we can casually ask ‘Was a pedophile ring operating?’ So in fact it all only hinged around the question whether ones parents had the necessary few acres to pay the inflated fees of a Maynooth or a Thurles to learn what – that Augustine was taught by the pagan Plotinus to put intellectual meat on the dried bones of the Galilean Jew three hundred years after he was said to have vacated his tomb (like we all eventually do) so as to make sense of the insatiable desires he felt in the night for the concubine, whose name he could not even commit to paper. ‘ Make me chaste,O Lord, but not yet’, he cried. But in fact all the neophyte needed was to be initiated by pure force in the middle of the night by one’s professor in the frighting darkness of a domitary; there was no need for the abject prostration before a bishop in a mighty cathedral surrounded by worshiping crowds. And it did not need a Poussin’s daubs to do them justice. The irish born painter, Francis Bacon, did hundreds of image of such ‘initiations’, as he knew all about such events and liked them, and could honestly paint them, and should therefore have been employed by the hierarchy to decorate our cathedrals, as it appears there were whole gangs of pedophiles rampant then – and perhaps still – in Ireland,

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I note the tendency of old boys and girls as well as current pupils and parents to campaign for their school that has been shown to be cavalier and careless with their safeguarding, both from past and in the present. Terenure College Old Boys are putting out the word that people should ‘forgive and forget’ otherwise the college’s future could be put in jeopardy; some Ampleforth senior students were handing in a letter to Downing Street to ask that the recent ban on Ampleforth should be rescinded because it could put the future of Ampleforth in doubt ( I also note that the girls were called Serena and Cecily, and no doubt there were a few Hugos and Ruperts in the entourage). All very nice for well endowed, privileged, entitled posh kids, their parents, and old boys and girls to have the time and the money to campaign for their schools. I have no doubt they will be heard, because the people who are making these decisions are essentially from the same mould and class as they are ! I doubt if there is a Rathmines Tech Old Boys’ and Girls’ Association to undertake a similar campaign if it was needed. It’s not what you know but whom you know that really counts. Posh boys and girls rule. Evidently.

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I also think it noteworthy to consider the responsibility of parents and other authorities with regard to protecting their children from vile abusers. The private school system seems particularly culpable with parents apparently colluding in cover-up and then incredibly sending their own children to the very same institutions where they themselves had been traumatized. In the UK preparatory schools involving children as young as five could be particular hell-holes. The author AN Wilson describes his own childhood years at one run by a husband and wife team of insane sadists: the Head would masturbate while beating little boys, while his wife had a penchant for forcing children to eat their own vomit and had a kind of chicken run constructed in which boys would be imprisoned until they wet themselves, at which point she would bring in other children to laugh at them. I don’t believe even the nuns had thought of that one!

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The trouble with that kind of toff parent is that because it happened to them and they think it was character building, they think it should be the same for their children ! If you get two Public School boys (in the UK sense) together and it won’t be long before they are talking about who buggered whom in the dormitory all those years ago. I can remember being taught to masturbate at the age of 8 in the dormitory by the dorm prefect who was probably 13. Not that it made any sense to me at that age !

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A fascinating account of life in institutions is told from the perspective of the child from four years onwards. Tom, in early 1940’s at 4 YO, was abandoned in a South African government run orphanage where, as the only English child, he was constantly bullied by Boer adults and other children. His account is splendidly written as his hugely superior but immature intelligence tries to make sense of his life and all its adversities. Yes the brutality is exposed, but it is not a “miserable ” account. Parts of it will have you laughing and cheering him on.
I recommend “WHITETHORN ” by Bruce Courtenay, as an excellent read, as are his other books too. But WHITETHORN exposes what can go on behind institutional locked doors, and community collusion with it.

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It is astonishing that this abuse could happen as recently as the 80’s – 40 years ago. It is also astonishing that all staff seemed to be aware as this abuser was the focus of humorous jokes by everyone, pupils included. In primary school harsh slapping was the abuse of the day and sometimes pretty awful. I went to a day school for 3 years where we were abused mentally and physically (vocational school). I completed my secondary school as a boarder for three years where the brothers were exceptionally kind, caring and normal, except for one who had peculiar mannerisms. The lay teachers were very strict, subjecting us to mental abuse, as in laying down the “law”. But basically all staff were kind and I cannot recall at anytime in my 3 years any reference to “strange” behaviour. I am deeply saddened for the victims/survivors that no one listened to them about their experiences while they were at school. Abuse of different kinds in many reputable institutions is beginning to emerge…bit by bit, particularly in male dominated places. When I first suspected an abuser in the late 70’s behaving strangely, I confronted him and asked what he was doing re: altar servers…he denied everything. Within a few days I had him removed and brought him to the attention of authorities, a club he ran and to Gardai. Nothing was done for years but I did not have him anywhere near the Church ever again. This was at a time when there were no official guidelines, no obligation to report, much denial and cover up. However with the wise guidance of a senior colleague, I pursued the matter as far as I could. Perhaps it was the constant vigilance of care and protection which my parents practice about our safety that stayed with me for life. I hope the men who have ensured justice for their abuser will continue to find healing and be supported by the Carmelites. Teachers and priests of these years have many questions to answer. All of them.

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@10:31

I’m astonished at your astonishment.

The superior of the Brothers of Charity and others employed in Belmont Park hospital
in Waterford knew Denis Lane O Kelly, the medical director at the hospital, was sexually assaulting women in the hospital. Nothing was done about the matter.
According to Mary Rafferty the hospital was receiving public monies.
Rape, sexual assault and sexual abuse was CRIME, even in the 1980s!
Covering up continues….

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9.07pm
Ha ha ha clever PR by the desperate PR company and desperate Ampleforth School (Catholic Eton) by using two posh girls given the Eton educated Prime Minister can only have a soft spot for Buxom Posh Wenches pleading and begging him!!
Thing is the government might relent knowing full well it’s only a matter of time that a paedophile monk is unleashed on the children of Ampleforth .God I hope I’m wrong and for once safeguarding children wins the day and Ampleforth pays the price for decades of abuse and cover up!

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I hope you sre too. Of course the reason this unusual action has been taken is because they’ve also had decades to get their act together and refused to.

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I looked at the Towards Healing company website. Interesting. They state while the service receives its funding from the catholic church in Ireland, it is completely independent of the church, in relation to its policies and procedures and the manner in which the service is provided. Towards healing is governed by an Independent Board of Directors. The independent board of directors includes, a Bishop, an Abbot, a missionary priest, a religious sister, a retired solicitor and a former social worker/therapist.
Does this company also function as a vehicle towards damage limitation?

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10.27:::”He could have done parish work at the weekend.. “. How do you know he didn’t help out? He was an intellectual and suited to the halls if Maynooth. Stop judging the man, for Gid’s sake. You are such a mr. perfect…You judge everyine by your ideals…which, as you know, are shady and imperfect and flawed. God rest Fr. Enda.

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Lol you can always tell the don’t rock the boat types by their insistence that because you criticise you think you’re perfect.
There is no such connection and these people are not intellectual Giants.
Prophecy is another gift and it’s always unwelcome!

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11.17: A silly superfluous question Pat…Each person as St. Paul reminds us is gifted differently. I believe that. To some is given the gift of preaching and teaching. Remember? He was a priest. What’s wrong with that? Why are you a bishop?????

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The main mission of the priest or bishop is to shepherd the People of God and to celebrate the Eucharist and Sacraments.

I cannot understand a priest without a pastoral role. Anyone can be a teacher.

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Enda was never seen saying Mass in Maynooth unless he was on the rota to do the Sunday morning Mass in the college chapel. I wonder what he actually believed?

He also had a huge, well-appointed apartment in New House but I think he had moved out of that a while back to somewhere else in the college, though I don’t know where, exactly.

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In 1987 the bishops of all dioceses took out insurance to cover them against
allegations of clerical child sex abuse. Says it all.
Protecting assets for the future mission!
Child safeguarding must be independently run by the State.
The church and its employees are not to be trusted. I wonder what faculty members
in catholic run institutions such as Maynooth knew of the corruption in the church.

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Omissions:
– eastern Canada, very big media coverage of very big series of cases non stop from later 1970s, still continuing today
– Fall River (implicating an ex priest from Texas) was big in 1981

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Yes Two Posh Buxom Wenches are so much more winning than two effete monks prancing and preening and probably queening outside Downing St – better to give the impression of robust heterosexuality than repressed homosexuality with a penchant for adolescent young men and children – I hope common sense prevails and the powers that be say to the Ampleforth establishment: Fool me Once, Fool Me Twice, Don’t Fool Me Thrice!!
I wouldn’t let my kids in a 50 Mike radius of a Benedictine Monastery – if the deception to uphold the very sensible decision to not allow any more children into Ampleforth it will be a victory for common sense, justice and safeguarding a generation – if they relent and the government are only posturing, like a rap on the knuckles, they will reveal that safeguarding children isn’t a priority and more cases of abuse will follow because monastic communities attract predatory paedophiles! A hard and difficult reality to accept.

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@11.58am If your children (God help them) are just like you and share your obnoxious views then they are 100% safe. Who would ever want anything to do with them in the first place. Moron.

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12.21: One can be a pastor in very wonderful ways by being a teacher or lecturer! Think of the influence you have on your students…Pat, as usual, you’re dancing on the head of a needle. God rest the good soul of Fr. Enda. He was a good pastor in a wonderful way as a lecturer.

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Teaching and lecturing are not primary priestly functions. I always say:

A priest without a congregation is like a bicycle without wheels. Its looks lovely but it’s going nowhere.

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1.43: Stop digging holes for a most ridiculous argument….keep your wheels for riding, please…!! Fr. Enda influenced more lives than you ever will. Stop being so utterly foolish.

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12.25pm

Ah God love ya – do you feel better for getting that of your chest – being a key board warrior and hurling insults is both abusive and craven – as I am clearly a figment of your imagination- how could you possibly know anything about me or my family – thank you yes, my children are 100 per cent safe and if safeguarding children is obnoxious and moronic then I wonder who is the obnoxious and moronic one!!

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1.48…And you kept company with all the gays in town! So what….your criticisms are a complete non argument. Silly but what you’re really doing is inciting a sinister narrative about Fr. Enda. You are nasty.

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1.02pm
Wow!!
Quite how you ‘[or anybody for that matter] could construe from my post that within it was a ‘fascinating insight into how paedophiles choose their victims’ isn’t even a leap or a stretch of what I wrote – you have nothing to thank me for, I have done absolutely nothing for you.
I am afraid if you are seeking an fascinating insight into how paedophiles choose their victim’s can I suggest you speak to a Benedictine Monk!!!

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You said that if 11:58’s children were like him or her they would be safe. No leap at all. Do try to think about what your comments actually mean before hitting publish.

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2.07: It is good if we can see the inate goodness in others and affirm it. We shouldn’t always be creating innuendos…or deliberately looking for stories to defame others, as you do frequently.

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2.24: I was talking about Fr. Enda: You know that. I never mentioned the RCC. Get out of your obsessions. Pat, you’re stupid and thick!! Honestly. It’s not virtuous in any way to hate or to have hatred in your heart. Grow up .

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I honestly can’t think what you’ve all got your knickers in a twist about – have you never heard diocesan clergy talk about their colleagues who land plum jobs which never ever involve being woken up in the night by the parish? What Pat says is a mild version!
Lecturing of course requires a set of degrees but in general I have always thought that if bishops were obliged to choose their secretary by lots (for which there is a scriptural precedent) they would have a better idea of what parishioners feel like when some dullard is foisted on them and be more careful who they ordained.

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3.00pm

I would have done if it was on my chest in the first place…. Bless ya too and a have a lovely day!!

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3.38pm

Thanks for your post – in the light of it and its compelling argument, I am how going to think very seriously indeed about what my comments actually mean before I publish, on condition, you do the same – deal?

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The separation on intellectual and pastoral duties and abilities I have found expressed on this blog today is simplistic and evidence of taken-for-granted belief in whatever one assumes or is told by those within a hierarchy to be true. Use your mind and use your heart in each sphere of work, intellectual and pastoral.

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I take your point. But, given the shortage of priests can we not keep priesthood for priests and let qualified others be teachers, lecturers, canon lawyers etc.

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Bishop Pat because you and your followers are outside the Church you have no idea what is going on in the Church.
However you should all listen to Pope Francis, Bishops and Clergy and that is the Church is having more and more lay involvement even on tribunals.
We do not have a shortage of clergy what we have is far too many buildings and parishes.

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I have a better idea of whats going on in the church than most. My reporters are many.

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In the course of my professional life I meet many clergy who hold a variety of so called senior positions especially in education (School Commissioners, Directors of Education), CEO’s of Charities, Professors, Lecturers, Director of Social Services and last but by no means least Treasurers and Financial Directors – all ordained to the priesthood, some holding professional qualifications in their area of expertise- privately and off the record virtually to a man (some women, religious sisters) have said to me;
‘I don’t really do religion anymore’ – the subtext being that, prayer, priestly duties and holiness is for simpler souls and they have moved onto more important and prestigious work/roles – they deal with big budgets, big money and serious responsibilities, they concede that they are paid no where near what their non religious colleagues are paid and they readily concede that they are not paid enough – the whiff of resentment is always in the air – but may get a little bit more via their priestly stipend etc.
I’m not a Catholic but I always think it’s sad that they denigrate the pastoral and vocational. side of their priesthood and put the accent on being a Big Boys and Girls playing in a Big Pond!! It makes me think why did they get ordained in the first place – the notion of being a parish priest or sister no longer floats their boat and some have confessed that they don’t even believe in God and prefer a more atheistic world view – one religious sister said that the best person to be her successor (succession planning) would be a card carrying atheist!! I think she’s right but a card carrying atheist would make a terrible priest or sister!!

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Anon@5:21. I believe that what you have been told accurately reflects many, if not the majority of clergy. But they have such vested self interest in continuing to play the role that very few will admit it. Many of them, knowing they live a life of duplicity as their religious role is a sham, find solace in “other pursuits,” having neither the courage or sincerity to quit.
Mind you the initial faith belief indoctrination and subsequent clerical financial and employment dependency exerts a suffocating hold on them.

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5:21 A catholic priest mentioned to me fairly recently some of his best friends were atheists and most of then were catholic priests.

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4.35pm
I agree – after all isn’t being pastors and priests and administrators of sacrament what clergy are trained for and often are good at it – stick to what your good at – just as an accountant would make a poor priest – so too a priest would make a poor accountant. Simples!!

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5.35pm Of course, you are advising priests not to stretch their abilities, not to develop new skills and knowledge, not to grow humanly. I think you should reconsider your view, surely?

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This was uploaded by Fr Etienne and his partner Fr Billing on the Catholics in South Blackpool website. The same website he set up omitting another Parish in South Blackpool. The two of them are dangerous and need put in their place. Their relationship is also called into question. Are they friends or more than that? People in Blackpool and Oscott need to come forward and spill the beans. Why did Daniel get moved from Rome to Oscott? What is going on with Robert? His recent photographic tribute re the late Patrick O’Donoghue was more of a tribute to him than it was the late Bishop. The two of them are trouble and need dealing with. Their Bishop has his hands full there.

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Blackpool again? That young Father seems to wind up everyone. I wonder if his Bishop will tackle him?

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5.41… You hold only a prejudiced, cynical, negative and vindictive an impression of the Church…Absolutely…much of your info is from disgruntled individuals…

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@6:38: If I may I finish your comment: …….who now comprise the vast majority of Catholic clergy.
I wonder why.

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Dear Pat – I have had a long exchange with a very conservative Bishop who tells me I am wrong to leave the church even if I have suffered great abuse and harm -As the church is the instrument of God, and I will loose my salvation by leaving it -How would you respond to this? It has left me very upset , and inflicted further wound on top of all I have suffered

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6.48: Utter nonsense..We may have serious questions about the Catholic Church and criticise many of its teachings but I stay because I search for the essence of Christianity as elucidated by the Church. I find much solace and inspiration in its ancient mystical teachings, prayers and writings, in the lives of the great saints, in its spirutuality, theology, the Eucharist, its scriptures. I am inspired by the art and music and works of charity and compassion of many of its local congregations, religious, priests and missionaries. Yes, there have been horrendous, criminal abuses and actions which are morally reprehensible. I am forever challenged to live “the best” of what the Church means and should mean. Nourished by the liturgy and Eucharist in which i participate and many of its prayer styles, I find my peace, hope and spiritual sustenance by belonging to the Catholic Church, thriugh which I am drawn to Christ. It is wrong for you, Pat, to make so generalised a statement. Incidentally, I often wonder why the Oratory doesn’t attract more adherents who might give witness to the gospel in a way that’s attractive and inviting…Just wondering!!!

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Quite right, 7:35.
I remain a member of the Mafia because despite a few shootings the organization is good to the widows and I want to live the best the organization has to offer – fraternity and lots of spaghetti.
You utter fool.

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@9:42, by all means continue to live your delusions: you’re welcome to them.
But don’t come here going on about respect because you don’t agree with my advice to someone.
RESPECT! Religion can be respected when it proves its validity, something in which it fails miserably. It’s utter tosh from start to finish!

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8.48
In order for your analogy to work you would need not only to compare but, more importantly to contrast the Mafia and the churches.

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@6:47: Get out and don’t look back.
Pay heed to several posters here who have recently commented on the preposterous beliefs of religion, how we are sucked and indoctrinated in childhood into it’s weird faith based ( non evidential) beliefs to become emotionally and psychologically reliant on remaining.
Is there anything about the clergy to convince you they truthfully represent leadership of a path to a selfless charitable spirituality?
Use your intelligence, not your emotions. If you believe in God, surely He expects you to use what He gave you.
And good luck.

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9.25: Kieran, by all means let us use our “God given” gifts, intelligence and talents for creating a better humanity and world. If I find solace and sustenance in the Catholic tradition, whuch I do and which I value, you should respect that truth and not belittle it. I will respect your value system or humanism or atheism: I may not agree but tolerance and respect are important when we discuss the sincerely held beliefs of others..

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If we become part of ” church ” by Baptism if we take what the institution teaches us. Then if we leave the jurisdiction of Rome or any church then we are not leaving the church as we are still baptized -All we are saying is we are no longer part of the institutional church, and continue our Christian journey in other ways for our health, peace, safety, salvation etc etc etc So our salvation does not depend on being Roman Catholic or a member of any institutional church, or denomination.

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Are the musical clerics, the singing, dancing, composer priests, parish dodging, freelancers or are they also working in parishes.

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Why do rich parents bother to have children, only to send them off to boarding schools? What’s that all about? the future people will finf it barbarous that parents did that.

As for parents who send their children to monastic/SJ boarding schools, after all we now know, they should have their children removed from them by social services on grounds of neglect.

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8.25: What OTT nonsense. I went to boarding school for 3 years and have no regrets. I appreciated the sacrifices of my parents, got a great education, was introduced to art, literature, music. Great Brothers in charge, caring and totally motivated to give us every opportunity to excel in all pursuits. That was in the mid 70’s…Many a boarder can say the same….your case is ridiculous. Lies.

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@ 9.37: Your “great education ” may have filled your brain with factual knowledge, but seems not to have taught you how to evaluate and use information. Your unwillingness or inability to appropriately consider widespread information of abuse certainly appears to point in that direction.

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CCC 776:
‘As sacrament, the Church is Christ’s instrument. “She is taken up by him also as the instrument for the salvation of all,” “the universal sacrament of salvation,” by which Christ is “at once manifesting and actualizing the mystery of God’s love for men.”199 The Church “is the visible plan of God’s love for humanity,” because God desires “that the whole human race may become one People of God, form one Body of Christ, and be built up into one temple of the Holy Spirit.”‘

I think it entirely reasonable to expect this show not to be actively promoting crime, trauma and injustice by facilitating child abuse and engaging in dodgy finance.
This is the real challenge of the church now – in the age of the internet its shady side cannot be hidden and since the rise of the empirical scientific paradigm it not only has to say the above but be seen to be what it claims to be.
The difference between the RC church and, say, the oratory is in its inflated claims for itself, which I really don’t think it can produce evidence it lives up to.
By nobody’s standards does allowing abuse fit in any way with being the visible plan of Christ’s love!

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My current nearest bishop and his predecessor are / fine; but the elements that were foisted on us from outside, and the wider national and international outfit, have been making me sick with fright.
As a layman all I have to do to discommunicate myself is skip the smarties queue for a year and a day. But I feel sorry for clergy that were told they are trapped “for ever”.

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Caramelised 🙄 I guess that’s why the Ryan report was so suspicious of Raphoe under Boyce

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Bishop Buckley – you should read the beautiful, inspired and deserved tributes to Fr. Enda McDonagh on R.I.P…delighted that many were inspired by him…you have a long way to go, as have I, in leaving such profound impressions…

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Bishop Pat. I was the first to comment last night about Fr Enda McDonagh R.I.P. I was just mentioning him as I thought it odd that you hadn’t blogged about his death. It was not meant as a criticism in any way. I apologise if it may have been interpreted that way. For what it is worth I think you have done as much for the true church in Ireland on the ground and from the sideline on your blog as he did for the church from an academic/theological perspective.

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Pat may I suggest your create a spiritual healing program directed towards Maynooth Survivors. A residential healing course to empower Survivors to heal and find their vocational calling.

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