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DEATH OF HANS KUNG.

PAT SAYS

I am very sad to hear of the death of Hans Kung.

But he lived a long and productive life and leaves an unforgettable legacy.

I was always a very big fan of his and liked reading his books – even though they were a marathon of a read.

I loved his book “Infallibility”.

I also liked his short book on death and have put it away with a book by the Dala Lama “for when the times comes”.

He has been very badly treated by the Vatican.

Theologians should be allowed to freely explore ideas without being silenced

119 replies on “DEATH OF HANS KUNG.”

Yes he was treated so badly.
I have also just learned that the Jesus Fellowship Church, which always had a dodgy rep, decided to fold because of the groups history. Their statement is here-
https://jesus.org.uk/
Although this move has been criticised as likely leading to less compensation for the church’s multiple survivors, I post it here because RCs here always want to know what is expected by those concerned about the RC church’s ongoing lack of response to its history of abuse.
The JFC’s approach of asking its members, reporting abuse to the police, setting up a redress scheme, a public statement and winding themselves up seems a proportionate response.

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Unusually, it would seem Kung was not gay, unlike his contemporary, the old queen Joséphine Ratzinger.

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Aren’t you turning a blind eye to his lifestyle? He claimed to be a Roman Catholic priest “in good standing”, but he was not celibate and laid claim to a very lavish lifestyle -including the display of the familiar status symbols of privileged people in modern secular society. There was not the smallest trace of humility in him, and he demanded to be treated as an absolute authority answerable to no one else. In fact, his personality was very similar to that of Adolf Hitler.

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Online debate about twenty years ago about his relationship with a very close female disciple was, “rather mysteriously”, cancelled. You can do your own research about who the woman was -since he’s now dead, his team of lawyers is no longer on a retainer. I can’t be bothered to post more than that, since she’s still alive (I think).

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No, but I have met the Queen of England, and I don’t think that high- profile celebrities like either of these, who claim God as an excuse for their celebrity, should be immune from public criticism..
Küng claimed the same lifestyle as the Princes of the Church.

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7:55am

You are right, like all freethinkers he thought he was right and everybody else was wrong. His arrogance was appalling, the fact that Patsy was extolling him tells us everything. He was not in conformity with Catholic Teaching, how he was never excommunicated is astounding. ,

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2:11pm
Are you alright?
Who said Kung should not be immune from public criticism? He was a theologian, an academic, employed by a University, not a celebrity. If you are going to criticse base it
on facts or on his work, not on gossip, speculation or innuendo. He was not a freeloader.

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@12:11: You are misinformed concerning freethinkers. I will correct you.
A freethinker is one who thinks freely and independently on the basis of reason, not according to any prescribed authority. A hallmark of freethinkers is scepticism of religious dogma: they form their personal opinion and belief based on evidence and reason with no automatic deference to the perceived authority or teachings of religion.
Contrary to your assertion that freethinkers “believe they are right and everyone else wrong”, they simply consistently question religious and other “truths” as alleged by believers, asking the believers to show factual evidence for their truths.
It is in the nature of freethinking, like scientific enquiry, to rejoice at new convincing evidence. Certainly with respect to religion they find little to rejoice at.
MMM

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Thank you MM for a measured and informative comment at 5:40.
Whether your comment was to someone simply misguided or to another of the all too frequent narrow minded ranters, I hope h/she has the courtesy and grace to acknowledge your correction.
Don’t hold your breath!👍

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7.555am

What an utterly disgraceful comment. Youi compare Kung and Hitler. In doing so you show a complete lack of humanity. Your comment was vile.

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Emotional reactions like this are so trivial and boring. Traits that Küng and Hitler shared: A conviction that they were absolutely right. A conviction that they had privileged individual insight into a program of action that would save their nation (Hitler) or Church (Küng). Great geniality shown towards acolytes. An absolute refusal to concede that opponents might actually be correct. To be fair, Küng wasn’t gassing his opponents, only canceling them. Basically, to hell with all self- proclaimed Messiahs like these. BTW, worth noticing that Küng’s Weltethos was a re-hash of what the Baha’i religion had already set out to do ( but of course you have to pretend to be novel to get the money rolling in).

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.2.29
A disgraceful comparison. Was Küng responsible for the annihilation of 6 million Jewish men, women and children? There is no place in a civilized society for purveyors of such views.

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Thank you @ 5:54. Berhow’s article is interesting.
I found it difficult to follow on account of confusing strawman propositions and excessive deconstruction in tautological terms. Most of all I noted a lack of consideration of the implications of “endless” time. I put endless in quotation marks to signify common criticism of evolutionary processes which seem to only understand it as an ordered progression of improvements within a recognisable time frame.
But thank you. To properly digest it I’ll need to read it again and give it more thought.
MMM

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During the unsuccessful Council he drove round Rome in a convertible and dined out in the city’s finest restaurants where he supplied lines to journalists delighting in the destruction of the Church.

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In the JP II era curial cardinals were driven around in BMW 7 series… and would often been seen in the best restaurants. How they must hate the fact that they’ve been reduced to Mondeos

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2:38pm

So was it infused knowledge, Bella?
You just know he was not in conformity with Church teaching?

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3:15pm
No it was not Infused knowledge, I never read any of his books but I got plenty of information about him and his erroneous opinions from articles and books. There was a lot of information about him since the late sixties from which I formed my opinion of him. Which was that he was an Arch-Heretic, an opinion I have never changed.

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His autobiography, My struggle for freedom, was published in German: do we know any other German book entitled ‘my struggle’. (I did read it out of curiosity) I did not like Küng.

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He reconciled with the Vatican unlike some. He didn’t show any nastiness, bitterness and spitefulness towards them unlike some.

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10.31am You don’t like the truth do you unless it suits your hate agenda. Pip squeaks like you I find so entertaining as you are so so predictable in your response.

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3:58pm
Patsy I just explained to you that I read plenty about him and his erroneous opinions which
allowed me to form my opinion of him. His heretical writings were well known you did not have to read his books, they should have been on the Index which unfortunately was abolished in 1966 by Montini

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And, @4:16, you just fail to realise just how stupid your 4:16 reply comment really is!
No point debating anything with you!
Leave him be +Pat!

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4.16pm: So you base your opinion on Kung on the opinions of others? Had it occurred to you that they may have had other agendas not necessarily wholesome? Reading his work may have given you your own insight into the man and his work.

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Did Jesus wear a collar? No. But then again a priest is not and does not represent Jesus but their version of what they think Jesus was. This can be good and equally bad. The Gospel is not a rule book. Jesus did not have sight of this. A collar is a piece of cloth, anyone can put one on. It means nothing. Appreciate your story Pat. Did Jesus have any clothing to identify himself? No. Again man made. The collar is a recent invention. Man made rules, nothing Godly about them at all. I think people who need to attach themselves to a symbol or cloth is lacking emotional developmemt. The Jesuits do not always have a collar does that mean they are odd? No its a bit like kids who want Nike and others who as you say would settle for clothes from a charity shop. Your comment isnt very nice Pat about charity shops, you have the luxury of a rent free gaffe and donations but many people are not in your position and they rely on clothes from charity shops. It makes me laugh how all these religious lunatics say they do what they do in the name of a God. Go back to school lads. Pat you are sometimes very unchristian – slagging people off for example – do you have divine authority to pick what commandments you follow at any given time a time that suits you?

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9.28am: You have correctly seen through the smarmy Bishop of Larne! What an arrogant, self righteous prig he is, choosing whatever pieces of the gospel suits him. His authority is shredded to pieces by his hypocrisy. His penchant for sneering, judging, condemning, ridiculing and crucifying other lesser clerics is very morally reprehensible.

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11:03 am

What’s bugging you? Do you consider yourself a lesser cleric?
If you do, remember positive self regard, i.e. healthy self esteem, is very important.

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I’m afraid, 11:03, your comment says far more about you than it does about Pat. Any suggestion of ‘lesser’ etc, comes from you. I suspect you are one of the clerics who has things he would really rather not be exposed on the internet.

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Wojtyła dealt with Küng as free thinkers were dealt with in the Soviet block. Not so surprising after all. I wonder did he ever see the paradox.

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Rip Dr. Hans Kung.
The following is an extract from an article titled ” Hans Kung: architect of radical catholicism.”
“The controversy over Humanae Vitae which barred artificial birth control provided the occasion but not the provocation, for Küng to publish Infallible? An Inquiry. Councils, he wrote, are not infallible, but are imperfect and contradictory. The creeds, formed in the fire of controversy, are fragmentary, incomplete, and imperfect. They carry error with the truth. By the application of historical criticism to dogmatic formulation, Küng comes to the conclusion that creeds are not rigid or frozen formulations, but rather ‘living signposts’. Else he said:
“Definitions and decrees are simply not intended to say everything there is to say about the truth. They are not intended as balanced, detached, learned treatises, but as correction to particular definite errors.”
If the traditional formulations and councils are fallible, where then does one look for authority? ‘To the papacy’ would be a natural suggestion as the ultimate appeal for authority, but Küng sees fallibility there also. Vatican I must be understood in terms of the controversy of that time, says Küng. Popes are not the citadel of truth for they have erred and the ‘Pope cannot by any means define arbitrarily or against the will of the Church as a whole; the Pope himself has to be on his guard against schism’. Küng has called on the pope to admit his fallibility in order to satisfy academic inquiry, silence Protestant criticism, and advance ecumenical life. For Küng, papal infallibility is a political tool—an instrument of power, rather than a theological reality—an instrument of truth.
As a leading force for biblical dogmatics in the Catholic Church, Küng turns to Scripture for direction. He constantly calls for a return to Scripture, filling his books with scriptural citations. ‘For Küng, the normative language of faith must always be scripture.’
But Küng’s view of inspiration is not what it may appear. He doubts many of the New Testament passages, but still finds value in them. The Scripture, he says, contains a mass of contradictory doctrines, some of which are false.
If Christians do not have an infallible tradition, nor an infallible pope, nor an infallible Bible, what assurance can they have? Küng answers that they have the church with the promise of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit. Hans Küng believes in the church’s ‘indeceivability’ (Untrüglichkeit). He has confidence that the Spirit will guide the corporate church along the path of truth, but it will not have the luxury of infallible signs along the way. This Untrüglichkeit guarantees stability and unshatterability; ‘in brief, a fundamental remaining in the truth in spite of all ever possible error’.

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From the little I know of Kung he appears to have applied intelligent reasoning to the body of RCC beliefs, trying to see through the bullshit of its patently obvious inconsistencies and mistruths to find more truthful understanding in keeping with the core New Testament message. BIG MISTAKE!

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@11:26: I was being sardonic !
And I agree. How is it really possible to be authentically true to oneself and still be a follower of RCC bullshit orthodoxy?
Maybe “it’s a mystery!”

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Why didn’t HK and his his followers just become happy Protestants rather than staying as unhappy Catholics?

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Kevin there is an informative obituary article on Kung in the Guardian online just now

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Good and faithful servant. From the interviews you can tell that he is not ‘Anti this and that’. Rather, he seeks reform to allow the Church to thrive in a modern world.

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Hans Kung once said in a lecture in Dublin that people like Broadbery, Michael Cox, Pat Buckley, Sinnead O’Connor et al were wrong to seek ordination without a Papal mandate. He said they did it for all the wrong reasons because they wanted to create their own rules to suit their own agenda. He said that it harmed the progress and argument for ordination of married former priests and the ordination of priests. He wasn’t daft.

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@3.43
11.54 asked a fair question. The poster at 11.47 used the phrase ‘et al’ – so they have sufficient level of education to know that they should reference their material when quoting others. 11.47 is therefore open to the accusation of being lazy by not supplying references for their work.

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@Goat
Yes ‘et al’ is used in referencing but the fact someone knows that phrase doesn’t mean they know about academic referencing.
You have reminded me of a bloke I used to work with who started group emails with ‘Dear Et Al’! 🤪

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The irony of using the words of a man silenced by the Vatican to promote the Vatican’s agenda.

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12.08
Not at all. No irony. If the argument holds and is valid its provenance is immaterial.

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3:43 pm

Are you telling a porkies dreamed up in your imagination merely to be nasty?

The post @ 11:47am is utter crap!

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An earlier poster said Kung wasn’t celibate and wasn’t gay – did he marry, have a mistress/girlfriend?
His book Justification is superb – he was like the Catholic Luther – justified by faith etc.
Humanae Vitae is a joke – written by a homosexual in deep existential angst possibly succumbing to early onset demential and without a doubt HV, given he rejected the advice of the commission he set up, a frollick of his own, nothing more, nothing less.
Ratzinger loathed (and I do mean loathed) Kung – the funniest thing I ever heard from a pope was Benedict pointing out that a male (gay) prostitute who uses a condom is on his way to conversion – no shit Sherlock – so naive, as if a prostitute doesnt use condoms!!
The right will shout, ‘The Kung is dead’ whereas the left will mourn his passing – the extreme centre will do as we usually do, just get on with our lives – after all we all know that a theologian is someone who devotes his life to questions no one is asking.

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12.14pm anon

PPXI (author of humane vitae) a homosexual? Do you have any proof or evidence? 👆

I might be naive but this is news to me or is it just common knowledge inside the Vatican?

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The other time the church famously ignored its own commission was when the commission into Anglican orders found them valid but for political reasons this was ignored and Apostolicae Curae was the result. But then the church isn’t about truth, it’s about power.
The real own goal there is that AC says Anglican orders are invalid because of, among other things, the ordinal didn’t intend to create sacrificing priests as the old RC rite did.
And neither does the 1968 RC rite…..

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Tell me which is worse?
Mc Carrick or Kung?
Brendan Smyth or Kung?
Fr Grennan or Kung?
JPII who covered up Marciel abuse and received millions from Marciel and Cardinal law or Kung?
Frankie who ignored abuses at deaf school when he was Bishop of buenos aires or Kung?
Saw another forum with very trad Conservative leanings, they blasted Kung by saying poor man he’s going to hell. Extreme views such as this. Its a right wing organisation that rcc is.

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The first person in each case.
The actual teaching of the church is that we can never know whether someone is destined for hell or heaven.

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12.35: Get a life. You are forever repeating yourself. It’s annoying. You have strange opinions and a crazy way of expressing them.

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1:12

Get a grip. You’re easily annoyed.
DG is entitled to his views. Are you trying to gaslight because you don’t like his opinions?

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1.12pm Wind your neck in. You are just a ridiculous ridiculer whereas DG, on the other hand, makes useful contributions to this blog and humbly asks questions when he is unsure.

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Dear Bishop Pat, thank you so much for your help and discretion just now I really appreciated it and I am v very grateful.

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What and miss an opportunity of displaying the TRUTH in front of haters like you?

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The thing that leapt out at me from that is the church is the second largest employer in Germany!

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4.29pm anon
I was surprised to see this, same as yourself. 2nd biggest employer with reduced taxes due to their charity status.
In Germany, every Catholic must pay ‘catholic’ tax to govt. No wonder German rcc is very wealthy. Here in this country is donations, not tax.
Jesus never asked for taxes or donations, when he started his 3 year healing ministry.
Lot of Germans are leaving rcc cos of, 1) they don’t want to pay’ Catholic ‘taxes, 2) abuses.
PF needs German and American rcc badly cos of money. They are the biggest in terms of wealth and assets in bank.

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4.24pm I don’t think you know much about truth. Your post was so blatantly false, any idiot could have worked it out. Sounded more like Buckley praising himself, what a laugh.

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DG
Pope Francis does not need America and Germany as Pope Francis is not the Church.
Pope Francis will not be sadly with us forever however the Church will not die.
The Church is the People guided by the Holy Spirit.
1.3 Billion Catholics so i do not think it will be skint because of America and Germany.
The assets of the Catholic Church in in billions with or without Germany and America.
Like everyone else they all return to the True fold and Pope benedict and Pope Francis has made it simpler for those outside to come in.

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Pat, begorrah and good day to ya. C’mre to me and I tell ya. I’m thinking of getting a bottle of wine tonight. Nothing grand just a nice bottle of white cono sur. its sounds posh. Sure we all need to let out hair down sometimes, aren’t I right.

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4.30: Howaya Me auld tulip..Old Joe. Remember the hay barn dances….ya loved the straw for a snog…I resisted your charms but wouldn’t mind grabbing hold of you now!! Any chance? 👅👅👅👄👄💗💗…

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6:17, Well, that’s the best offer I’ve had for a long time. I’ll bring the drink and you bring the good times 😜

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Patsy, Kúng didn’t wear a clerical collar. I thought you weren’t a fan of these kind of priests. You seem to blow hot and cold. I can never really tell your real position.

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4.45: Uf Pat’s views were somehow close to those of Kung, then Kung could not ever have done anything contrary to Pat’s expectations. I call it contradictions, not confusion. Pat does blow hot and cold…old age I think!!

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A very holy woman of honesty, virtue and truth. Her life is an example to so many. She even worked abroad among the poor.

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we have a visitor in the house. They came as we were making the dinner. I always think its rude for people to wait while you’re trying to cook a dinner. My other half has had to put my food in the microwave.

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I’d be amazed if a liberal priest didn’t have a boyfriend or girlfriend. They don’t believe in celibacy or mortal sin and believe in situation ethics, so why would they deny themselves?

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About the comment above about why Kung and followers stayed Catholics – after the council there was a real sense that the church was progressing to a more liberal and modern future. This tended to diverge considerably from what was coming out of Rome and has only really been studied in terms of the liturgy.
You get hints of this in the way after the council many men entered the priesthood in the full expectation that celibacy would be abolished shortly. There are also hints in the subsequent relations with Rome of liberal dioceses in the US or Holland.
To cut to the quick, even after JP2 became pope there was an expectation in the liberal camp that the progression would continue. By the time they had hung on for years it was too late for many. People also get themselves into enclaves of their own views, where they can kid themselves things are going their way.
Some (Matthew Fox is the example that springs to mind) did leave as well.

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Just asking at 5.35pm

Nope. If I asked someone on this forum re PPXI sexual orientation, it doesn’t mean I’m a homosexual. It only confirms the content in Martel book that’s predominantly gay church which I never knew or thought in the first place.

6.18pm anon

You sounds like a strict teacher with a rude or contempt attitude, oops its my mistake, PPVI 😬😂😂😂

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6:34, judging by the hissy fit you have taken to being asked a question, I’m going to assume you are a closeted homosexual and that’s ok. We welcome all sorts here.

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7.21pm anon
Ha ha re hissy fit, can you show where🤪.
Assumption is mother of all fick ups. Never assume anything except for economists.
For example, mother Burke which I saw in Limerick and thought was gay but I was wrong bec I ASSUMED. never again

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7.52pm MM.
Good to see you back as we needs a wide diversity of views here.
Sorry I didn’t see your comments as I must have missed it. What was it?

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Surely you’re not asking him to repeat his boring trashtalk? Can’t you find it yersell, but don’t tell us anything about it and his crackpot ideas. Please!

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Deaf Guy – what a stupid comment! You assert that a book written by someone and that makes claims without evidence, thus makes that content true? People like you are unquestionably dangerous, for you take everything and anything at face value 🙄🤔

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7.41pm anon

I don’t take everything at face value. But 70% to 80% priests, bishops abd cardinals are gay say the book. Not only that, I recalled + Pat mentioned 70% are gay, thus making it a predominantly gay profession unless I’m wrong and open to correction.

Unquestionably dangerous me or rcc, I would say its rcc unquestionably dangerous when it comes to abusing the kids. Never leave a child with a priest or a religious order priest. In my time, as a little tot back in 70s and 80s, where priests shagged their housekeepers as everybody kept quiet about it cos they don’t want to rock the boat. Nowadays it’s priest (not all priests) openly flaunting their sexuality right from seminary days to priesthood. My ex curate rip, was one of them plus new curate which I recognised him as gay.

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Dear Deaf guy – or as you shall be known from now on – MYSTIC MEG!
Meg, can you give us any sources for such a high percentage of clergy being homosexual in orientation. Did they take a survey? Was it a phone survey or on the back of a cereal box? Do enlighten us with your incredible wisdom and insight !

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You have to laugh at the repeated comment today of, ‘Evidence, please’.
What do these people expect? A signed statement?
It’s not like they can produce any evidence for the Immaculate Conception.

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9:27 pm
” What’s sauce for the goose…”
Are we not consistently told to produce evidence of abuse by the ” powers that be in the church” !

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Cicero at 10.16pm
Sarcasm par excellence coming from you. LOLOL.😂
I’m not in a position to ascertain the true figure cos I’m a laity. I would suggest to direct your question to Bishop pat. He would probably know the estimated figure.

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estimated? but you were asserting these figures as fact, based on a book that you ‘read’. So what is it to be MEG, ‘true figure’ or ‘estimated’. What a sap! You really are the epitome of the BAH BAH 🤦🏻‍♀️🤣🤣🤣

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DG
Bishop Pat would not know he is worse than you he is not even counted as in the Laity.
You can all guess but we will never know.

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“…worse than you…”
You’re not the brightest button on the blazer, are you.
We know far too much.

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