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RULES FOR ORATORY PRIESTS.

People, normally critics and opponents, often ask me what I would do about an Oratory Priest found on Grindr or involved on another scandal.

The Oratory does not require celibacy of any of its members and priests.

Nor does it have any problem with its priests being gay, being in gay partnerships or celebrating gay marriages.

In fact, I personally have been celebrating gay and lesbian blessings for 35 years now.

And nowadays, the Oratory solemnisers are listed to celebrate legally binding gay marriages North and South of the botder.

Of course, The Oratory sees itself as part of the Christian Church and the Christian Tradition.

And that tradition does have well-founded moral norms.

We also believe in sin in general and sexual sin in particular.

We oppose, like all right-thinking people the crimes of rape sexual assault the abuse of children and vulnerable adults.

Sexual relations are ideally conducted in the context of love, giving, emotion and romance.

I’m not sure recreational sex belongs in the Christian moral compendium – but can hardly either be regarded as the greatest of sins among consenting adaults.

Quite simply, priests of of The Oratory are not in any way as burdened as their Roman Catholic compatriots.

WAS OUT OF SORTS SINCE WEDNESDAY – EXPLAINING SLOW COMMENT POSTING.

I fell n Wednesday, and ended up in A&E with a head bang and arm frature.

I a dangerously well again 😖😡

54 replies on “RULES FOR ORATORY PRIESTS.”

Pat, have you written this about one of your priests. I saw something on social media about him. What any of your priests do is their own business. well done

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Grindr should be strictly off-limits for oratarians, Bp Pat. Just let them use the gents like any normal priest.
(Sorry to hear about your fall.)

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Pat, sorry to hear about your fall. Please look after yourself and take time to fully recover. You are needed more than ever in the current climate.
Best wishes for a full recovery.
Paul

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Pat, you are making some very contradictory statements. You say you’re not sure if recreational sex belongs in the Christian miral compendium but that it can hardly either be regarded as the greatest of sins among consenting adults!! What a moral conundrum!! If one if your “priests” ends up having consenting sex with two/three others, do you approve? Would like to know your answer. Apart from the reprehensible crime of child abuse, you seem like you will tolerate anything that’s consenting between adults. You need to clarify as your blog is very confusing. Why condemnation for Catholic clerics and not Oratory priests and brothers? Are we in moral equivocation territory?

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I debated with myself about whether to respond to this or not.  I’ll be damned if I do and damned if I don’t. I believe that sometimes this blog can be a toxic environment and at those times prefer to steer clear of it. Describing it as such will be no news to Pat  – we have discussed this before.  One of the blessings in belonging to the Oratory community is that we are free to express our opinion.

So, for what it’s worth.

Last week Pat wrote an article on the evils of Grindr. That night he received various anonymous messages from people claiming that Paul Creanor ( they misspelled my name) was on Grindr and on Growlr. One anonymous poster talked about the pictures I had on Grindr – the pictures described are all on the front page of my Facebook profile.  

If this Grindr profile exists then it is a false one. This has happened to me before and it has also happened to Pat. Someone posted a fake profile for him as a ‘ minister to the gay community ‘.  I was speaking to my nephew about this issue. He told me someone had posted a fake profile of his partner on Grindr in a deliberate attempt to split him from his partner. We live in a strange world.

In last week’s article, Pat spoke of a young man who had his pictures stolen and used by malicious people to inflict a great deal of damage to his life. I believe that malicious people are doing the same here. There are people who would seek to undermine Pat by trying to attack his alleged hypocrisy.  It’s interesting to note that these people who claim to have seen my profile on Grindr/GROWLr only alerted Pat that evening to the existence of such a profile. Given the content of Pat’s blog and its challenge to hypocrisy, I would have thought these anonymous posters would have alerted Pat to the alleged Grindr profile earlier.

Before and up until I was ordained in the Oratory I HAD a profile on Grindr but that profile was very clear. It had a clear picture of me. I was not looking for casual sexual encounters. I was looking for a partner. That was stated on the profile. I discussed that profile’s existence with Pat and another member of the Oratory that I trust.  I spoke of my attempt to find a partner but my discomfort at having a Grindr profile. We all agreed that as a member of the Oratory that I was not bound by the rules of celibacy and therefore the profile was not an issue. Let me be clear – the profile was there with Pat’s knowledge.
 
I admit to being naive in believing that I might find a partner there – it was an alienating and soul-destroying environment – I suppose that’s what is to be expected of an app that is explicitly geared to casual sexual encounters – and not long afterward removed the profile.

My quest to find a partner continues but my Grindr profile was deleted some time ago. If you see me there on Grindr enjoy the chat, who knows what you might find out but be assured you will not be speaking to me.

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Thank God we’ve finally found a priest who acts like a adult. No surprise that he belongs to Pat Buckley’s oratory.
Good on you Paul and best wishes in your quest.

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Paul, thank you for your very sincere post. You really seem to be a genuine, thoughtful, and loving person.
I would like to ask you very seriously about your point about this blog as a toxic environment. I myself would go further and say that this site is not only toxic but sinful and evil. And so, I would like to ask you, do you see yourself as indirectly participating in evil by associating yourself with, and supporting the oratory organization while your leader runs this blog as an official ministry and outreach of the same organization?
Do you think it would be better if either your leader disbanded this blog or you left the oratory to associate yourself with a group that doesn’t engage in the destruction of the innocent while trying to expose hypocrisy in the church?

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12:34 pm

‘…destruction of the innocent…’ Will you elaborate on that remark, please.

Do you consider covering up (a Church policy) and protecting clerical child sexual abusers toxic, sinful and/or evil?

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I agree. A mature and insightful post Paul.

Is there not an issue of hypocrisy on this blog though? When profiles relate to you and Pat they are presumed false. When profiles relate to other priests and seminarians Pat presumes they are true. Is that fair?

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Yes. The other priests are welcome to come on here and say they are false, but strangely they never do, because Fr is afraid one of his tricks will go public.

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1.10: I find the comnents from the Oratorians – Pat and Paul – interesting and curious. All moral norms seem only applicable to Catholic priests!! The 8ratorians seem to tolerate a free for all once it’s consensual. When information is placed on social media, or accepted on hearsay, gossip and innuendo, it’s unfair, wrong, rebutted vehemently as an immoral act but when such is done to a Catholic priest, it’s accepted as absolute truth. We need clarification.

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1:41 – so you are saying a victim should confide in their abuser? Or better yet, they should use the vessel of their abuse to stop their abuse? This blog is not a mediation tool.

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Paul, this is a big moment for you, as I assume you are ‘coming out’ (at least to blog readers). I hope you find a nice partner. Thank You

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Like Moses I’m sure you will get a hand if you need it Keep well. How many priests does the Oratory have. How do they manage structurally and financially

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10.42: Good questions to ask of Pat. We do need more transparency from the Grand Inquisitor. I am deeply sorry for Paul at 10.15: Disgusting behaviour by homophobic haters. Those who abuse like this should be found and reported. Paul, thank you for your honesty. Every good wish.

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I don’t see any contradiction between saying recreational sex is not ok and saying it is not a huge sin.
Way too much stress is put on supposed sexual sin when people are ignoring huge sins like the number of billionaires while people are starving.

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Serious problem: The English word ” love” is equivocal, and translates several terms in the Latin and Greek, some of which are, or can be, contradictory -e.g. caritas and amor. Please note that caritas comes from a root “especially valued”, whereas amor refers to sexual passion and doesn’t evaluate at all. Those who can’t perceive the contradiction, are trapped in the latter.

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Ubi caritas et amor Deus ibi est. at 12.02

Not a very exact or enlightening summary of the differences. Have a look at C.S.Lewis’ “The Four Loves”.

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Read it. It’s telling that it’s perhaps the most accessible attempt to address the problem, despite being so dated. Have a look at the Latin text of the Cena Domini in the 1975 Missal, and ask why the revisers altered the line that you quoted to “Ubi caritas est vera, Deus ibi est”.

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12:02

There’s no problem.

See: ‘The Art Of Loving’ by Eric Fromm.

Erich Fromm, a renowned psychoanalyst, sees love as the ultimate need and desire of all human beings. In his book, ” The Art Of Loving” he discusses every aspect of the subject: romantic love, the love of parents for children, brotherly love, erotic love, self-love and the love of God or the divine. He looks at the theory of love as it appears throughout the cultures of the world and at the practice, how we show or fail to show love to one another. Love is an art, which we need to develop and practice in order to find true commitment. We need to find it, individually and as a society as a whole. Erich Fromm is one of the major figures in the field of psychoanalysis. He devoted himself to consultant psychology and theoretical investigation before his death in 1980.

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There is a problem. I find Fromm’s philosophical foundations inadequate for the edifice that he built. Discussion of that would be too involved for this blog. However, I have heard RC religious clerics proclaiming that there is no need to live by “rules and regulations” or objective moral values if one simply “lives in love”, and then witnessed them being viciously spiteful to those they don’t like -because they take “love” as being primarily an emotional attribute. When people talk about “God” and “love”, I always want them to define their terms.

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Clarification on the comments of Pope Francis on Civil Unions
As far as I can make out the news is not the bombshell news some are making it out to be. Rather Pope Francis is using his usual bold language and refusing to be put in a corner by either side on this issue. His statements on civil unions for persons who identify as homosexual were made during a documentary. A documentary interview is not a forum for official papal teaching. Unless the Vatican offers additional clarity, they should be taken in light of the very limited information available about them. We do not have a written text and we do not know how much of what he said was edited or omitted.
It is clear from Amoris Laetitia that Pope Francis stands four square behind marriage as between a man and a woman.
In Amoris Laetitia we find the following:
The word of God tells us that the family is entrusted to a man, a woman and their children, so that they may become a communion of persons in the image of the union of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. (29)
And again:
Christian marriage, as a reflection of the union between Christ and his Church, is fully realized in the union between a man and a woman who give themselves to each other in a free, faithful and exclusive love, who belong to each other until death and are open to the transmission of life, and are consecrated by the sacrament, which grants them the grace to become a domestic church and a leaven of new life for society. AL 292
But in Amoris Laetitia we also find :
The Church makes her own the attitude of the Lord Jesus, who offers his boundless love to each person without exception. During the Synod, we discussed the situation of families whose members include persons who experience same-sex attraction, a situation not easy either for parents or for children. We would like before all else to reaffirm that every person, regardless of sexual orientation, ought to be respected in his or her dignity and treated with consideration, while ‘every sign of unjust discrimination’ is to be carefully avoided, particularly any form of aggression and violence. Such families should be given respectful pastoral guidance, so that those who manifest a homosexual orientation can receive the assistance they need to understand and fully carry out God’s will in their lives (No. 250).
And again:
“We need to acknowledge the great variety of family situations that can offer a certain stability, but de facto or same-sex unions, may not simply be equated with marriage.” AL 52

I think that we can conclude from all this that while Pope Francis does not support ‘gay marriage’ he does want some civil protection for people who find themselves in gay relationships and need protection from the law. He held this view when he was Ab in Buenos Aires. We cannot conclude from his remarks that he approves of gay relationships as such but that society must treat them with the same respect which it affords all its citizens. He considers this an act of Christian charity.
In the documentary Pope Francis also said that: “Homosexuals have a right to be a part of the family. They’re children of God and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out, or be made miserable because of it.” This should not be interpreted as saying that Pope Francis is in favour of homosexual couples adopting children. Pope Francis has spoken before about this to encourage parents and relatives not to ostracize or shun children who have identified as LGBT. This seems to be the sense in which the pope spoke about the right of people to be a part of the family.
I am reminded of an interview which Mother Teresa once gave and was asked what she thought of gay people. She answered and corrected the interviewer each time he mentioned gay people
and said “You mean beloved children of God”.
This is basically the stance of Pope Francis.
In fact we can say that he is being consistent with Church teaching, even though he expresses himself in words which are downright provocative and easily misunderstood!

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While the church advises intimacy within marriage, they will baptise babies born outside of marriage and allow the marriage of couples who have children. People can deduce from that that the church has an understanding/acceptance of the reality of intimacy prior to marriage while advocating their ideal view point.

The church has not found an understanding nor acceptance of homosexual unions. The Pope went as far as he could by suggesting that it’s right that society seeks a solution in civil unions.

The church also doesn’t have an understanding nor acceptance of unions after divorce.

Some people might see that it would be compassionate of the church to at least bless unions that they do not recognize as marriage. The difficulty for the church however is that it muddies the message of the ideal that they advocate.

In my humble opinion: Clergy should not be seeking casual relations. They should live by their vow. Married men however should be allowed join the priesthood. They already can become deacons.

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Hi Bishop Pat, sorry to hear you have had a fall, I hope you are alright?
The sun is beginning to shine now, and the weather is getting better by the day…
so put your feet up and make sure you take care of yourself, a wee whiskey works wonders for aches and pains caused by falls and tumbles… I found this out for myself, only last September… >** What was it that caused my fall again… 🤔 **>
You are a good man and a wonderful and caring Bishop.
Peter, Poppy & Pip (the kitten lol) x
PS The Annie Lennox Collection – Shinning Light 😎
>** https://youtu.be/OfJeQDkz4JU **>

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Pat, that profile of you is back again on Grindr. someone clearly reading this blog. I have reported the profile and asked another friend to do the same.

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If you can’t find it… Grind it… 🙄
Only messing.
Yeah, these dating sites sure do seem dangerous places – even more so to those who may speak their mind against the Whore of Babylon… a d if people begin to listen to you and you get a “footing” dating sites are extremely dangerous places indeed. Very, very dangerous is the Whore of Babylon… she will do anything to silence victims!
The great big Whore of Babylon…
Leaving oneself open to all manner of evils.

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They should have kept you in, Bp Pat, to be on the safe side. I am sure the +Aul Doll and others would agree.

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Maybe a warning to plan your retirement.
Just like the Church of Ireland retire at 65.
Only Catholics forced to go on till they drop.
Ave Maria

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Is it just me or did Fr Darcy do a great job on Nolans show entitled Finding Faith on BbC tonight? Bit of a legend 👏

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The man is an absolute puke. The sight and the sound of him makes me want to vom 🤢 🤮 His “religion” is himself. Total narcissist.

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I was going to watch that “Finding Faith” programme on catch up, but hearing that Darcy’s on it has put me right off.

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He was typical of any and every cleric I’ve seen trying to explain and defend the indefensible! Watching their YouTube debates with atheists is by times hilarious.
I believe that religion is a total farce wrapped up in a self deluded cosy gratifying mystery. Many believers adhere to strict belief and observance from ” higher sources “, like orthodox RCC. Many, like D’Arcy fashion their own convenient cocktail of beliefs, but cling on to the wider privileges of orthodoxy. I intend no criticism here, for I acknowledge that many, like Nolan seek faith to meet their own inner needs. That’s okay, just so long as they don’t try to foist it on the rest of us.
MMM

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Pope Francis met His Eminence Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, dean of the College of Cardinals. to discuss amongst other things the shortage of cardinal.

So maybe Ireland will lose out again due to Cardinal Brady sill alive and the sad state of Ireland and very poor Leadership or the lack of it.

So Archbishop Leo Cushley could be transferred to Glasgow and become Scotland’s Fourth Cardinal

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Jim S. @ 10.03
You have absolutely no idea what was discussed at the meeting. You are a complete and utterly delusional charlatan.

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10.03
You cannot even help yourself from being Jim S in the brain.
Everyone know there is now many vacancies for Cardinals and the Curia is needing five or six alone so that is why Pope Francis would consult the Dean of Cardinals to see the situation.
You know in the Roman Catholic church this is Eastertide did you not get any Easter Blessings to show Love and Compassion to others.
Just Saying 🙂 🙂 🙂

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