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IS PAEFOPHILIA A HUMAN SEXUAL ORIENTATION LIKE HETEROSEXUALITY AND HOMOSEXUALITY?

A very small number of scientific and medical persons say that paedophilia is a sexual orientation

Groups speaking for paedophiles say it is a sexual orientation.

PAEDOPHILIA –

Pedophilia is termed pedophilic disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), and the manual defines it as a paraphilia involving intense and recurrent sexual urges towards and fantasies about prepubescent children that have either been acted upon or which cause the person with the attraction distress or interpersonal difficulty. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD-11) defines it as a “sustained, focused, and intense pattern of sexual arousal—as manifested by persistent sexual thoughts, fantasies, urges, or behaviours—involving pre-pubertal children.”

PARAPHILIA ( Medscape)

“Paraphilia is any intense and persistent sexual interest other than sexual interest in genital stimulation or preparatory fondling with phenotypically normal, physically mature, consenting human partners. If a paraphilia causes distress or impairment to the individual or if its satisfaction entails personal harm, or risk of harm, to others, it is considered a paraphilic disorder. A paraphilia is thus a necessary but insufficient condition for having a paraphilic disorder. A paraphilia by itself, without distress, impairment, or potential or actual harm, does not necessarily require clinical intervention”.

PAT SAYS:

So most informed people and professionals see paedophilia as a disorder that is sometimes distressing to the person with the disorder and sometimes not.

We must have compassion for the paedophile who does not act out their paedophilia.

Such a person will find thenselves with a sexual attraction they can NEVER act upon.

Imagine the pain involved in saying NO to your sexual attraction for your whole life.

But it has to be that way because children are totally off-limits and are totally incapable of giving consent to such actions.

OFFENDERS:

I have done a lot of pastoral work with victims / survivors of abuse.

I have also worked with a small number of abusers / offenders.

I have discovered that there are basically two kinds of abusers:

1. Abusers who do not want to re-offend and are willing to take help.

2. Abusers who do not want help and who will re-offend, given the opportunity.

Abusers who want help can really be helped not to re-offend. But this involves life-time management and support. I have seen a small number of people achieve this.

Abusers who do not want help have to be closely monitored by the authorities. These folk can be very manipulative – so extreme caution is vital.

In Ireland’s case, I do wonder how our strict and repressive Catholicism played its part?

136 replies on “IS PAEFOPHILIA A HUMAN SEXUAL ORIENTATION LIKE HETEROSEXUALITY AND HOMOSEXUALITY?”

Don’t forget there is a third type of paedophile, who will say the right things but has no conscience and will just abuse children anyway. They will usually blame the people tasked with keeping everyone else safe from them.
They are very difficult for professionals to risk assess because they will not give a frank account of what is going on in their head and will only answer the questions asked. I have worked with a limited number of people like this and believe that there is a possibility of change with them but it’s very difficult.
The difference between adult to adult sexual orientation of all sorts and paedophile attraction is that by definition children cannot legally consent so it is not a valid sexual orientation which should be considered as such in society.

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@10.37
Very considered comment and so true. The problem is that those who feel such attractions cannot access help easily. I have found from clinical experience that such attractions often seemed to be formed in early years due to abuse, mostly through family situations but also through abuse in institutional situations. Those however who wish to act on their impulses have no excuse in hurting those so young. I don’t believe paedophilia is a sexual orientation but a philia based on past experiences, PTSD and mental health issues. I believe that those who wish to act out on these impulses are attracted to situations where they have access to children, churches, teaching, scouts, sports etc

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Absolutely, 2:02. Certainly here in England after years of Tory austerity the mental health services are in no position to offer these people the sort of long term therapy they need. Perhaps I should also say that many mental health workers also have difficulty working with this client group.
Certainly having worked in a single point of referral for a large city mental health service we would get self referrals from people with very complex needs such as you mention, including paedophile thoughts and the service had no hope of actually helping them.
I have been very impressed with what I have heard of Stop It Now though.

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As a professional my opinion is that sex offenders are very difficult to manage in society and constantly need to be monitored. Some have no concern whatsoever for the damage they cause to their victims physically or mentally.

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The demarcation point is ‘Abusers’. If they have abused then they should be marooned on a penal colony (St. Kilda) so they can live out their lives with their own kind in their breakaway civilisation, as they have proven that they cannot live within a normal society. The risk to our society is too great to do otherwise.

What you have to understand about Paedophiles is that often sex is not the desire problem needing fixed. They are driven by power and having and exerting power over a vulnerable victim. This is why trying to fix Paedophile’s ‘sexual orientation’ always fails because it is their maniacal intention to exert power over others that is the problem.

Paedophiles and Paedophile enablers are Soul Vampires. This is why it is often difficult for those harmed by CSA to recover to live a fulfilling life.

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I disagree and this is the bandied about redefining that has taken place. It is sex and POWER that is driving the behavior. Certainly in my case, the man was in a recruitment mode and he eventually proved himself to be homosexual, ephobilie, controlling and desirous of same sex genitalia. This is just a fact for many. Yes. there are heterosexual predators too, we know. The demarcation point , if you are preventative minded , is
bosses monitoring adults from forming EXCLUSIVE relationships with any youth 21 or younger…like alone at beachhouses, plays, dinners, campgrounds, sacrasties, parks, ballgames etc etc etc.

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To be a paedophile is a crime. Men with strong morals minds, in mostly of the case commit suicide when they faced the secret of their lives “being paedophile active or passive count as crime!!!” Narrow minds like those of yours who become Roman Catholic Priests to hide your true identities of yourself as gays or transgender men under the excuse of “God ‘s Call” are not capable to discuss such complex matters…
Learn how to accept yourself for whom you truly are, than jump to the conclusion of others!!!

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My favorite bible passage is the one where Jesus says to the apostles that a great enemy will come who will be a bishop like them in all things, except he will be honest. Jesus reassured the apostles that they could cover up clergy corruption, duplicity and crime with impunity, because the sheep would think it was evil to reveal these things.

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Well it’s lucky we have your intellectual comment to bring the conversation back, er, up, to your level.

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You reference the part Catholicism may have played its part re: paedophiles. Undoubtedly the church’s ceazy and strict moral teachings affected people in their sexuality with unnecessary guilt and shame. We treat paedophiles as perpetrators, criminals and unwanted people among us because in acting out their desires they destroy people’s lives. If someone feels that paedophilia is a sexual orientation and be defined as acceptable, we need to challenge that assertion. Sadly, there are some paedophiles who believe they are “normal” and see no harm in abusing a child or teenager. That’s a horrendous assertion. Blaming such a disposition on religion doesn’t explain why paedophiles exist in every society, with or without religion. Any sexual behaviour imposed on anyone against their will is morally reprehensible and a crime that deserves the full rigour of the law. We cannot have any equivocation about the crime and horror of paedophile abuse. It exists and it is destructive, sometimes fatally for too many. We are constantly told by professionals that paedophiles are very manipulative, thus the need for vigilance and the appropriate definition of exactly what paedophilia is.

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What scares me is the sheer number caught out by these online vigilantes, and not just repeat offenders. They seem to be everywhere. I knew a religious priest later convicted of child sexual abuse and I had literally no idea he would do that. He seemed relatively sensible and human in comparison to the rest of his community.

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I think you have to tread very carefully on this. It can be some sort of chess piece to eventually normalize pedo/ephebo philia. It’s a deviance. Being excessively liberal with this condition has led to Connecticut’s Man/Boy Love Association trying to justify this kind of relationship. The person guilty or not guilty of this behavior should be monitored from forming exclusive relationships with 21 year olds and below. If they are guilty, reported to Police and NEVER allowed near 21 and younger ever again. Ever. If Criminally insane people are getting ordained or being manufactured that needs to be looked at ASAP. I do agree that Catholicism has/is creating developmental problems with its restrictions and ethical youth dating, appropriating self control,, seminarians whipping themselves and other medieval penances, how to have sex and commitment in a selfish pleasure seeking with no care or strings attached type of society. The Church is woefully lacking in developing it’s members in healthy, moral human development and just focused on petty encounters with one’s sexual nature. With the Pope’s dismissing of a psychological report of a victim on a Wyoming Bishop and reinstating the Bishop, it doesn’t look like the old train is getting a retrofit anytime soon.

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Human sexuality is a wide, exotic and depending on your moral/ethical view a Pandora’s Box of perversions.
Privately all are permitted if legal and consensual. Paedophilia is neither and therefore is both criminal and a paraphilia requiring that society (children) and themselves (psychiatry) are protected.
Consensual sex involves orientation- non consensual is a crime.

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Why does the RC priesthood attract so many paedophiles, relative to any other profession on earth – a haven, one could say?

It has something to do with a cocktail, a heady mix of sexual immaturity, adolescent lock (a rounded mature RC priest is an oxymoron) and power play (I don’t know a RC priest who isn’t a control freak, not even a benign dictator, just a dictator).

Is this concoction the recipe needed for the blight, nay crime against humanity, of clerical child abuse and cover up.

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The reason is because before ‘safeguarding’ many joined the priesthood for totally the wrong reason – in other words to gain easy access to children.

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I’m not Betty by the way, but I think her comment draws attention to an unrealistic expectation of what safeguarding can do.
What it does aim to do is to prevent people already convicted from having contact with children, and to recognise and deal with the pattern of grooming which paedophiles all engage in.
There is an ongoing discussion in the church of England about how the iwerne camps went wrong. The pattern of grooming is very clear indeed, as is the classic pattern of seeking protection through connections and respectability.
I would like to think that current safeguarding training would help to prevent further abuse, however the repeated comments I read here indicate that people in the church still have not understood either how paedophilia or safeguarding work, so I’m not holding my breath.
I would say that I think this lack of change of culture is largely attributable to safeguarding being a paper exercise in the church.

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10:34 Betty, why do you think safeguarding prevents pedophiles joining the priesthood?

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You’ve picked the issue where a rational discussion is virtually impossible and let’s face it many members of your readership don’t distinguish themselves with how sensible their comments are.

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Pretty simple solution. Paedophilic tendencies should get the death penalty. Anyone covering it up should receive the same.

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I blame Adam and Eve. Had those two not sinned, we wouldn’t have inherited their moral weaknesses.

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I hope you said that ” tongue in cheek” Magna?
Those who use the Adam & Eve “excuse” just avoid and simplify an inherent aspect of our humanity. Our ability to choose between good or evil is emotionally and psychologically personal, and contextual.

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Well I am a professional in the Criminal Justice System and again this is one answer to solve the problem. Would it make them think twice about committing abhorrent acts against children. Indeed it would.

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Because obviously the death penalty works so well in preventing crime in the US!
I’m a health professional and think that penalties like that don’t work. The reality with human behaviour is we don’t think it will happen to us, hence people have unprotected sex and risk a baby, smoke and risk lung cancer and so on.
I think to ‘treat’ a paedophile you have to almost create a new childhood for them so they relearn empathy and examine all aspects of their life. It’s like an addict having to reexamine their whole life but much deeper and more difficult.

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11.05

It is the logical outworking of the Dogma of Original Sin, F.

If our moral tendencies, good or bad, were inherited through the original sin of our ‘First Parents’, then we are, in a fundamental respect, not fully culpable for our sins, which is why, I suppose, humanity stood a chance of sin redemption, through the Incarnation, as opposed to Lucifer. Lucifer had perfect knowledge of God, in so far as God permitted him to know the Divine, and, therefore, must have possessed sufficient personal strength to resist whatever temptation he experienced: would it have been just of God to punish Lucifer for committing the sin of personal pride had he been tempted beyond his endurance?

We, however, fundamentally sin through vitiation of human will, in turn brought on by inheriting, through the bloodline, atavistic moral weakness.

This raises interesting questions. If God is creator of all, does he bestow on his rational creation the capacity for good AND evil? The Second Creation Account in Genesis objectifies as a serpent the capacity for evil, when, really, it is innate in human nature. So if there is good and evil in all of us (or, at least, the capacity for both), is there a corresponding capacity in God himself, since humanity (according to the First Creation Account in Genesis) is made ‘in our image, after our likeness …’? (Incidentally, given ‘our’ here, who says there is no reference in Scripture to the trinitarian nature of God?😕)

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3.29

Quote me the exact reference in Wikipedia, and I shan’t call you a liar.

Should I hold my breath?

In all seiousness, if you are one of my usual detractors, you need to speak to someone a lot more mature and wiser than you who get help get you over this personal stumbling block: your near-pathological jealousy of my abilities.

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Magna, I acknowledge your knowledge of scripture, church history, and other related matters. That is obvious from the able manner you shred many less knowledgeable blog commentators.
However, to my mind and with no disrespect, might it be fair to say that you are in an “arrested state” of development concerning the reality of our human existence. I ask this in response to your apparent reliance on scriptural explanations of our origins and nature, certainly in relation to the Adam&Eve saga. Could your deep knowledge of scriptural interpretations and history be a case of being preoccupied with “trees, while failing to see the wood.” Our social, psychological and cultural imperatives are powerful factors in inducing and perpetuating religious beliefs.
May I suggest for a moment that you set aside your knowledge of scriptural interpretations, and question the historical veracity and reliability of “the Bible”, both Old and New Testament. The lack of historical corroboration independent of already committed”believers” is forceful. And that’s before one considers the many contradictions therein.
Consideration of accounts of other “gods” and religious traditions is also relevant to an argument that the Bible simply draws from and mirrors other narrative traditions preceding the Christian Bible. To take a NT one, for example, the alleged virgin birth of Jesus mirrors accounts of other “gods” similar virgin births: Ra, Net, Horus, Romulus &Remus, Dionysius, and Buddha. In the OT, in relation to the “Noah’s ark & Flood”, consider that the epic of Gilgamesh, approx 2000BC warned that other gods would destroy all life by a flood unless the hero built an ark to take abord one pair of every living creature.

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6.22

Thank you for the compliments.

By ‘arrested development’, I take it you mean that I’m not open-minded, at all, or enough?

I accept that there are other factors that facilitate belief in Christianity; in my case, a Catholic upbringing, especially the fear of damnation inculcated in me at a highly impressionable age.

However, I think it unfair to say that my development arrested here, for example, I no longer have any regard whatever for priesthood and hierarchy, things I arrested at when I was younger.

Yes, I know that much in the Bible is not historical narrative, nor was it intended to be: it’s remit is spiritual.

I believe that the Jews of Jesus’ time would have been far less literal in their understanding of Scripture than many are today.

Again yes, I know that some things in the Bible have extra-biblical parallels, and that they clearly inspired certain biblical authorship. This suggests to me that God is indeed everywhere, even among the pagans, and makes himself known, to a greater or lesser degree, in accordance with human capacity to accept him.

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Magna, your 7:36 reply goes nowhere near a sensible response to 6:22. You appear to still rely on scripture as having central significance to spiritual belief. There is no proof of this other than what humans, especially the vested interests of religious institutions, have historically attributed ……..well in essence to a motley collection of disputed contradictory writings from oral traditions, and then claim them to be divinely inspired.
By arrested development perhaps was intended to convey a sense of wonderment that someone of your learning and intelligence has not yet moved beyond the factors your third paragraph at 7:36 refers to.

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My approach to this is very simple. The law of the land says that sexual activity with children / youths below a certain age is against the law and you will be prosecuted. The age may vary in different countries. So, no matter what your predilections and attractions, if you have sexual contact with children / youths below that age, you are committing a crime. In some cases this may be extended, for example in the case of professionals who have contact with young people above the age stipulated by law, but whose responsibility and professional relationship with those young people is further regulated by law. If a teacher has a sexual relationship with a 17 year old pupil, for example, they are breaking the law and committing a crime, even though the age of consent may be 16. I do not particularly concern myself with the attraction, drive, predilection, persuasion, orientation of the perpetrator. If someone has sexual attraction to children or young people, for whatever psychological, emotional, or background reasons, then that is a matter for that person. It only becomes a matter for society, the law, and for me, if those people act out on that attraction illegally. Personally, I could not find any argument to justify, normalise or legalise paedophile / hebephilia attraction and behaviour, given that the power / authority differential between the young and the adult is so great and it is not reasonable to assume that there is any proper consent able to be given by the young person, therefore the actions of the adult are necessarily coercive and abusive. In the case of other orientations, like heterosexuality, the law in most countries accepts homosexual activity between consenting adults as legal. The real issue here, that differentiates paedophilia / hebephilia from homosexuality, is the issue of consent and equal status. As to the matter of being able to act out on our orientations and impulses, there are lots of impulses that I have that I do not act out because they are against the law or against some other social convention – such as I like Crunchy Bars and when I go in to a shop I have an impulse to shoplift one ! Do I ? No. Because I know it is wrong and against the law and so do not shoplift. There is no justification for accepting or tolerating any behaviour that is abusive and coercive, and by my definition sexual activity with children or young people, contrary to the law, is always a crime. If that’s your bag, then you need to realise that and get the help you need to regulate and control your impulses and attractions. Otherwise you will end up in prison. For a long time. Ask Bede Walsh, or Jolly, or any of the other clergy who have thought that they could dip their fingers in to the kiddie sweet box and get away with it.

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Yes@9:35, your approach is very simple, and correct. It IS that simple. Many of the abuse explanations will throw light on causes and motivation, but cannot in anyway excuse the abuse.

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Today’s blog topic is a difficult issue.
Firstly, why is there a legal age of consent? The law is there to protect young people. It also aims to prevent older people from taking advantage of younger people.
The vulnerable in society must be protected. Children must be protected.
The church has failed to stamp out pederasty for centuries. The church minimises scandal. It has made a scandalous situation a whole lot worse.
Lust is a form of coveting. A society, and media, that does not encourage intimacy in committed relationships, is weak in encouraging a person with disgusting predator tendancies to mature to seeking a consentual committed relationship with a consenting adult.
Peoples childhood experiences can influence their behaviour in later life. How that hurt can be healed is a difficult one. Bad experiences in life is no excuse for mistreating others. A repeated mistake is not a mistake, it is a decision.
May all children live and grow in peace. ☮️
PAX

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10:02

Seamus, you mention, ‘a repeated mistake is not a mistake, it is a decision’. Did you ever hear of repetition compulsion? Human behaviour might be more complex than you think.

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11:30am: I’m glad you realise it, Seamus. Of course, if authority figures repeatedly cover up for colleagues, even if under instruction to do so, such behaviour is a decision.One might say, a different category of behaviour, both ethically and legally. Pax, Seamus.

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11.30

It’s also called ‘addiction’, Seamus, and addiction is much harder to overcome than one-time behaviour.

Morally, it is sometimes called ‘besetting sin’. The person may want to overcome such behaviour, but struggles to do so. ALL of us are affected in this way. This is why regular prayer, and grace, are so important: we cannot redeem ourselves. So lean on God, heavily to the point of child-like dependency.

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Is it also interesting that psychiatry is only needed if it causes the person “distress” – which obviously means the person does not like having these thoughts and desires.

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11:57 In the absence of the compulsion you mention, he does have a point, that if we keep on making the same mistake it’s time to consider what we are doing ourselves.

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1:37, such behaviour is a decision. The Church minimises scandal. People should be under no illusions about that.
Where a safeguarding crime is committed, people should report it directly to the police and an independent safeguarding body. If people have a safeguarding concern they should also go direct to the police and the independent safeguarding body.
Any innocent lambs engaging in pay offs with the Church are most likely being hoodwinked into a deal for sake of minimising scandal. Sadly, any reporting directly to the Church is just for the intention to minimise scandal.
Some dioceses embraced modern safeguarding practices. Fair play to them for leading the way. Some had to be dragged kicking and screaming to come up to standard. Shame on them.
I think people can see at a local level that there is strong safeguarding. If there is not, I hope it is exposed.
In this current safeguarding age, the Church doesn’t appear to be a safe haven for predators of the young.
Boys are unlikely to become teachers because of the impression it could be seen as a predator profession. In this safeguarding age, clergy should have no access to children. If they do through teaching/chaplaincy work, it should be off the back of Garda vetting.

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I agree with Seamus. Compulsion is also a factor but we can choose to place ourselves where we want to be. Also, Superiors have knowledge of behaviors and assaults and they should be the one’s who have stepped in ASAP and never let them near kids again.
People can choose to be Sociopaths when they are under enourmous strains. This is why healthy systems are needed to diminish sociopathy ,not make it not so bad and enhance its prevalence.

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Rape is a frequent occurrence, like paedophile abuse. I actually don’t think rape is really about sex, I think it’s about power and wonder whether paedophilia is also about something other than the actual sex, such as power or a return to childhood.
In animals sex isn’t always about sex as such. I read up on gay sex in animals and read that it’s often about dominance. I read it up because my mother had two cats at the time called Cain and Abel, and rang me up one day to tell me they were gay, because she had seen Cain humping Abel in the garden 😜

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Yes but why does no one discuss why so many Catholic priests are paedophilia?
What is it specifically about this job, vocation, profession, call it what you will, that attracts them like bees to honey.
Yes, true. teachers and youth workers too BUT the Catholic priesthood attracts them in a disproportionate way.
Why is this?

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Yes these statistics are exactly the same as for the general population. What makes it worse in the church is the ontologically different place of the church and its clergy, the cover up over decades at a policy level, ignoring advice from Fr Fitzgerald, kowtowing to insurers, heel dragging for decades over implementing effective safeguarding and ongoing failure to take the problem seriously, duplicity over dealing with it, right up to this year when the Vatican didn’t even acknowledge the letter from the UN.
Everyone who has had dealings with the church in this area has noted that it’s a nightmare and the Spotlight reporters noted that it was like dealing with the mafia.
So it’s the church’s behaviour which makes it worse rather than a disproportionate percentage of abusers, but this behaviour means the church and anyone who supports it or even belongs to it thoroughly deserves to be a parish and laughing stock so go ahead.

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10.34

I deeply doubt the accuracy of that statistic, Pat. Remember most active paedophiles are probably never caught, especially in the RC priesthood.

The institutional church, after generations of malfeasance here, was more than just adept at concealing the true magnitude of this criminality, certainly more so than secular society. The institutional church would have felt much stronger reason to conceal instances of this crime, of which not least was the protection of its self-perceived authority to teach.

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10:34am

I’m glad you have pointed that out, today’s blog has just turned into a hate-fest against The Holy Church and the Clergy from all the usual haters.

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“BUT the Catholic priesthood attracts them in a disproportionate way.
Why is this?”
Is it disproportionate? Are there statistics to back up that claim?
If someone is “religious”, some will scoff at that word, and has no intent on marrying, possibly the priesthood does appeal to them? They have status and are free of societal pressure to be in a relationship.
Human nature being human nature, it is then down to the individual. Clerical state has not stopped priests falling for the other, or same, sex. Priests have left the priesthood for relationships. Widowers have joined the priesthood. There are people inbetween living double lives.
The Church sadly has provided some predators with access to youths. The Church then has only sought to minimise scandal and has failed victims. Predators thrived in that scandalous environment.

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‘They have status and are free of societal pressure to be in a relationship.’
I think that’s the real problem – a celibate priesthood provides a Haven for the immature, the deviant, the just difficult or awkward, in fact anyone who otherwise would have their inability in all sorts of relationships exposed.
There are another sort of celibates, laypeople and I have met them in other denominations, who may grow into celibacy as a ‘vocation’ in later life. I think these are the real celibates, and none of them has ever had a formal ecclesial position or event where they have vowed or otherwise committed to celibacy.

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Priesthood itself is the problem, Seamus; its very existence.

Jesus did not intend to replace one intermediary priesthood (levitical) with another (Roman Catholic).

Examine, carefully and honestly, the history of romanist priesthood and you’ll learn that it was behind every schism, and other upheaval, in the Church.

Roman Catholic priesthood emerged as a form of elitism and hierarchy, which put such power, not authority, in the hands of mere men; predictably, they abused it, and still abuse it.

Those who donate to this institution are feeding evil in the Church.

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MC, just wondering what you might say to me and my priesthood of 45/years. Genuine question. No trap or game.

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4.41
Pat, you asked me the question earlier this year and, as I recall, I answered that your ministry is much closer to the model of discipleship clearly envisioned by Christ, though at least one blog commenter denies this through lack of scholarly consensus on Jesus’ ‘intentionality’ here. Considering that the overwhelming majority of biblical scholars in the Church are priests themselves, the fool doesn’t realise that these men are hardly going to argue themselves into absolute irrelevancy. Which, actually, is what they already are, if they but knew it.
Back to the point, though, you have not, at least entirely, abrogated to yourself the dispensation of divine grace, unlike romanist priests who see themselves as sole mediators of it in their sacramental rituals.There is no getting to God except through them; this is what their rituals say. It is why these Christ-usurpers once made that brassy declamation: ‘Extra ecclesiam nulla salus!’ (‘Outside the Church, there is no salvation!’)
I remember your once stating, not all that long ago, that if lay people met together prayerfully to break bread and drink wine in obedience to Jesus’ instruction at the Last Supper, whatever happened then would occur now. I agree with this, but romanist priests would not, since this would mean for them a loss of relevancy, status, and power. Power is what these men crave most (and boy, do they abuse it!); you, clearly, do not.

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Last week, as part of our protest against hate preachers, a South African minister, now working in the North, set up a Communion Table in the square and invited all to commune.

I was more than haply to receive Communion from him and in return he asked me to give him communion.

It was one of those “where two or three are gathered moments.

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6.06
Well done.
Of course, the romanists would go bananas over this. Remember how they reacted when President Mary McAleese, a Catholic, took communion at a Protestant service in Dublin?
The romanists want the sole franchise on sacramental grace, not because they are entitled to it, but because they crave the power rush it brings them.
Modesty prevents my telling them where to go, and how.

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You can always tell when the holy priests start commenting. The discussion was a sensible one until 12:21 joined in.

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4.41: Pat, I think Magna will defend you and the “priesthood”” you live simply because you are independent, married and have no authority or power or church or congregation in the formalised, organised way as in most denomination of Churches. Because he needs you and your blog to deliver his hatred against the Catholic Church and Catholic priests, he will, most likely, not find any faults, failings or reasons to debase the priesthood you live. You are his template for all things good, humane and Christian. Though the priesthood you live as a priest and Bishop has its foundation in Roman Catholic theology and ecclesiology, Magna will not attack you because of your independence of spirit. He will not see the contradictions and hypocrisy in his perceptions of you in your situation and those of us who have been ordained in the same tradition as you. Why? Because since he was prevented from priesthood, he has been full of anger, hatred and resentment against all clerics, even though he knows that the vast majority of us are kind, caring, diligent and committed to our ministry, often with great failings and struggles. But we do exist. So, every blesding Pat and I know you don’t accept all of Magna’s vicious narratives, the same tiresome, repetitive ugly chapters every day….

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Perhaps. I have met and I know there are good priests. I can never deny that.

But does supporting a corrupt institution call their goodness into some questioning?

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6.05
If you truly believe that I was prevented from proceeding to ordination, then you must be able to name me.
NAME ME, you lying, romanist jackal.
And you people have the gall to wonder why I loathe you all, along with your morally degenerate priesthood?

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Pat at 6:12
I’m afraid you have the remnants of reverence for the institional church going on. Desmond Tutu said that if you choose neutrality in a situation of injustice you side with the oppressor. Priests who can see that the church’s history is outrageous but still carry on without actively working themselves out of the corrupt Institution are not good priests. There is no such thing as a good priest in communion with Rome, because if they were a good priest they would be in your position.
The clergy have more power than they say they do, and their statements of abhorrence are not supported by their actions.

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It’s not just Walsh and Jolly or Quigley it’s thousand upon thousands of RC clergy and tens of thousands of victims.
It’s a pandemic if you will (and you v likely won’t) and a blight that has ruined the crop forever.

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6.29: Now, now Marge, degeneracy is a most appropriate word to use about yourself. Degenerate in mind, heart and spirit. There cannot be any peace, joy or contentment in your miserable little life with all that badness of thought. Surely at this stage of your life, with your expelling from the seminary well behind you, your angst and rage should be dissipating. It’s never good to befriend these ugly monsters.. Just sharing my wisdom..

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Magna at 6.29: Do you ever think before you spew out the repeat caca? Your gut must be bleeding at the thought you are remembered by students and priests and easily recognisable by your typical verbiage. Since you seem to be of such bravura in expressing your tripe, the in us is on you to be COURAGEOUSLY honest in commenting under your real name. After all, you are morally strong and decent, aren’t you Marge? Display that miral courage and strength..We await (with disappointment)..You are as moral as the weeds in the garden.

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Why DO these eejits continue to claim knowledge of Magna and that he was kicked out of seminary and challenge him to ID himself: they all anonymous too! Can’t they see the contradictions?
Oh I get it: stupid disgruntled clerics!

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In every discussion I’ve ever had with RC Catholic clergy about paedophilia, child abuse I’ve always encountered a defensive casuistry and Machiavellian response.
It’s only ‘some clergy’ – it’s actually thousands and cover up is systemic.
They always put the accent on the victim being at fault or playing some part in tempting the priest. Victim blaming is rife and they despise them for not keeping stum and put pressure on them to keep them stum and intimidated.
They hate talking about or addressing it.
They always say more abuse occurred in families and they insist it’s a small number of them when it’s pushing 10 per cent.
They have expensive lawyers who are utterly vile in their pre hearing correspondence and they aren’t interested in justice just fearful of depleting their pension fund and retirement etc.
Oh and they are all tight tight – once a priest is accused Omertà kicks in big time – watch the clergy moves when someone is accused – it happened with Quigley – anyone associated with him or former colleagues etc are moved so the perception is given that they nothing etc.
There is a playbook and my view is the clergy know who the child abusers are among them – they just ain’t saying.

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Spot on. And their attitude is exactly why the holocaust of lives will continue, up until states start mandatory control over the church.

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It’s not only confined to clergy of any denomination. A very ignorant and ill informed narrow view. The majoroty of it is confined within the family home.

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11.56

Well said.

Yes, romanist clergy especially tend to deflect, or self-excuse, or play down this criminality.

Fundamentally, these men lack the courage to be honest with themselves. And if they are not going to be honest with themselves, they will not be honest with others either.

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12.19pm

Roman Catholic Clerical child abuse is confined to Catholic clergy – it’s cover up by Bishops. It has nothing to do with the family except the family has provided the children for you to abide.
Thank you though you rather make my point – shifting blame elsewhere, defensive, abusive and clueless.
So, why do you think the Roman Catholic priesthood both attracts and harbours so many pederasts?
I

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Father Matthew Jolley – he was Assistant Vocations Director for Liverpool (Fr. James Preston’s Assistant).
He was only 32 and had not long been ordained, he was ordained to the Roman priesthood by that abysmal man, Malcolm McMahon, Archbishop of Liverpool.
I remember this spine chilling headline in the LIVERPOOL ECHO on 25 Oct. 2019.
I remember him giving a talk on celibacy and priesthood in 2016 – which non of us bought, of course!
However, we never would have guessed in a million years that he was a paedophile; he had the face of an angel and seemed OK — although he did post a picture of a whale’s erect penis on his social media site, which I was quite surprised to find out. It was Bishop Pat who pointed out this alarming fact — maybe the staff at Oscott could have shown similar diligence to that of Bishop Pat’s? And that is to say nothing of the Archdiocese wherefrom Fr. Matt was “born and bred.”
I have NO doubts in my mind, whatsoever, that Fr. Matty — along with colleagues — were “trained up” to be put Obedience to their ordinaries before Anything else—even the Gospel and teachings of Christ Jesus, Our Lord and Saviour! The “Institution” MUST COME FIRST!”
But scripture says…
“The last shall be first, and the first last: though many be called; only the few are chosen.”
— Matthew 20:16
DUPLICITY AND ABUSE
Of course, is it fair to say: we know why those who Speak Up about terrible wrongs are “filtered” out of the system? Is it possibly more a case of “Separating the wheat from the chaff”—only to keep the chaff and attempt to to disguard the good and wholesome wheat…? (An abysmal attempt, if that! And with such catastrophic consequences! No?).
News articles, like the one below, are now common place in the worldwide media.
THE TRUE SAFEGUARDING OF OUR CHILDREN AND VULNERABLE ADULTS WILL BE UPHELD, AND MOST RIGOROUSLY.
Boo! 👻
LIVERPOOL ECHO
“[Roman] Priest tried to meet dad on Grindr to abuse his toddler son.” 25 Oct 2019
.https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/priest-tried-meet-dad-grindr-17149373

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The key thing predicting all crimes is the thing that turns a criminal fantasy into a reality and the attendant going through boundaries that goes with it.
This is the psychological mechanism behind grooming – it’s making the impossible acceptable but doing it so that the victim isn’t aware their own boundaries have been crossed, and testing them out with lower level transgressions first to see what they will do.
This is why you read about paedophiles giving their targets cigarettes or alcohol for example (although those examples come late in the scheme of grooming) – if the victim goes along with those without telling anyone, plus if they think they will get in trouble themselves, it sets the ground for higher level transgressions.
I think for me this is why paedophilia isn’t a valid orientation – the way into it would spell s dodgy relationship between adults.

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The RC church has probably always attracted paedophiles – dysfunction reigns among them – they know it, we know it, the world knows it.
The harsh truth is the Catholic priesthood more than any other because of mandatory clelibacy provides the culture and mechanisms that make it happen – primary schools, children’s liturgy, your work, it’s a pardophile charter.
The shitter is the secret is out and they thought they could keep it shut tight, fair play, they have for centuries, but now there busted.
Question: would you trust your child with a RC priest. Answer; No fecking way. Go figure!!

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Totally, and the clergys attempts to say they’re being targeted or fear of false allegations show it’s about them and they have noooo respect for anyone else.
That’s right, just like abusers 🤣

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2:25 pm
False allegations are known to be made against various professionals.
I have no doubt false allegations have been made against catholic priests.

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2.25: Priests gave every right to express their concerns about false allegations. I know personally of three false allegations against fellow priests. They were all completely exonerated by the DPP but were almost ruined. In one case, the liar “victim” got a prison sentence, and rightly so. I was personally approached by a man asking (innocently) for names of priests who worked in the parish in the late 60’s. I told him I had no knowledge and asked him for what purpose he required names. When he said he was catching up on “friends” I told him he must surely have their addresses if they were friends!! I did not part with information. I detected ulterior motives. These people who make false allegations and found to be guilty by the courts should definitely be sentenced. It’s not just priests who can be ruined but anyone in any profession. Any person, irrespective of profession who is guilty of abuse deserves the full rigour of civil law. In my second year of ordination I suspected a case of sexual abuses by a church worker – hugely respected – and within a week, I had him removed, reported to authorities and he was found guilty of the crime, all in late 70’s. Magna’s narrative that we (priests) don’t care is a big lie and a horrible, offensive slur.

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5:24 and 7:24 I would suggest you reflect on just why, for example, someone looking to make a fast buck, would choose a RC priest specifically to make a false allegation against.
If that reflection causes you despair you are finally beginning to realize the full impact of your church’s behaviour on people.
In a situation of injustice, an attempt at neutrality means you are siding with the oppressor.

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8:38pm
People make false allegations against professionals for all sorts of reasons not just to make a fast buck. In fact false allegations are known to be made in familial contexts.

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9:12 Would you care to point out where I said they weren’t? God you people are so stupid. How about you have a go at UNDERSTANDING a comment before leaping to reply.
If you READ my comment, before the words about making a fast buck you will see the words FOR EXAMPLE. That means the situation was an example and you are not replying to my point.
If you continue to have difficulty with this, get somebody to read it to you.

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8:38pm & 9:56pm

Pay attention: anyone who makes a false allegation against a professional to make a fast buck is stupid on a number of levels. Life is more complicated than dualistic notions of oppressor/oppressed, black/white,good/bad.Woke social justice warriors will eventually learn life is more complicated with lots of shades of grey.

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Multitudinous therapists… Medical and otherwise were building up profiles of clergy over years. That is why the RCC moved to make it all in-house; and so St. Luke’s and by extension Manchester were founded. Never a word seeps out from their hermetically sealed facilities.

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Stephen Joseph Rossetti used to head up Washington…. I heard him speak in person twice… one in Melbourne… that dry ice sensation emanated from the podium. I have always wondered why he did not accept/ was not invited to join the episcopal club. I presume what happens in those facilities could be likened to water- boarding. Less about therapy… more protection of the corporation and its CEOs . A strong opinion but I was never short of one of those…

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Yes but only for sex with other young people to decriminalise it, not for sex with older people. In reality that has happened in the UK now.

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3.42pm That slur gets banded about by clergy about Peter Tatchell – they have never forgiven him for trying to arrest the Pope or for saying that Newman was clearly Ambroses lover ((they were buried together FFS).
But rather like Bishop Pat is inviting a mature discussion on a complex subject, so too I imagine Peter Tatchell – for example I remember he pointed out how different Polynesian countries have a different approach towards consent as did ancient societies – I am confident that he is not a campaigner for lowering the age of consent to 14. Although Catholic clergy in Oxford or Ian Ker would go a long way to blacken his name.
.

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Are we taking our insight and morals from isolated tribal communities or from knowledge gained to date , age of maturity and non dependence, along with Judeo Christian values.?
Tribal Traditions can be erroneous too.

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Personally I like that tribe that kills missionaries. And so should Christians – before the rise of monasticism the only real career path in the church was getting martyred.

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Which is worse? Active paedophilia, or an institution which protects it, facilitates it, excuses it, and which retraumatises victims of clerical kiddie-fiddling?

The Roman Catholic institutional church, to paraphrase Martin Luther, is a cloak that covers and comforts evil.

What astonishes me is that people still support, not just financially but morally too, an institution whose role in the sexual abuse of children by romanist priests is, in my opinion, much more egregious than the conduct of the actual abusers.

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They would say they are being “Merciful” and Forgiving the sinner for redemption. There is however a lack of concern for any victims devastated or wronged, a clear pronouncement of just what behaviors are expected IN Fatih because they really don’t know and usually are too petty in any minor sexual expressions…. kissing, dancing, attractively perceiving etc etc etc.
Thus they create a confused, duplicitous dysfunction that has to survive by burying its created problems and continued dysfunctions because they are bound by Tradition.
It’s very time consuming.

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5.53

Good points.

God is merciful, but God is also just.

The RC institutional church expressed leniency as mercy and self-preservation as justice (the avoidance of ‘scandal’) when the moral sensibilities of the wider church were the very last thing on its unChrist-like mind.

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People support their Church at a local level Magna. You are overlooking a church community. Some clergy have brought shame on a parish through no fault of the parishioners. Shame on those wayward shepherds.

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Seamus someone who gives money to a parish church through the collection and doesn’t expect it to go to the diocese and higher is very naive. It would be like shopping at Amazon and expecting your money only to go to the overworked person collecting or packaging your goods.
People must be aware that parishes have to give a certain amount to the diocese and also must be aware that the church decides what it does with it.
If you want to support a particular priest you can give him gifts or shop tokens. If you want to support a particular church you can buy things like candles, etc.
If you want control of what happens to a financial gift or legacy, get legal advice and make sure it’s tied up with red tape.
The people who keep commenting on here saying the church belongs to them or are shocked at how a gift has been used, need to understand that the church considers your gift theirs to do what they like with. If they want to sell ‘your’ church, they will regardless of who has donated to it.

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I should imagine Pell was a good example of how they operate and get away with it. He couldn’t get back to Rome quick enough.

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I think the best indication the church actually had learned the lesson and wanted to keep children safe would be if they either abandoned diplomatic privilege or made extradition treaties with the rest of the world and voluntarily abandoned the seal of confession. Internal and external forum is also dangerous – in any other professional situation the person you are speaking to has a duty to break your confidence if necessary.

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5.06pm

Calm down Derek dearie – looking at another culture is part of a debate no one is saying anything about their insights or morals v Judaea Christian etc other than academically and for discussion proposes.
The age of consent in mid 18the C was probably about 12 or less and pretty confident age of consent not a burning issue for RCC.

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Ah yes that’s right Tatchell was doing what he does best highlighting anomalies in the law – kids sending cock pics can be prosecuted and put on the sex register etc.
He’s super smart brave campaigner and he’s write social media and the ease at which cock pics and revenge porn is banded about needs addressing via legislation.
And as I say clergy loathe him but he’s well used to that – he probably thinks a gathering of clergy in St Peter’s Square is the Catholic Church’s equivalent of a gay pride rally!!

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Peter Tatchell confronted Cormac in Westminster Cathedral. CMOC ‘s MC at the time was a pleb Fr Michael O’Boy who attempted to see Thatchell off. Ironic that the same O’Boy progressed on to the staff at Allen Hall under Elsie. Didn’t laat long because he was a dictator. Now PP to the outer extremites of Westminster in St St Albans, Hertfordshire. Vinnie does have a vicious streak.

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7.12: Where’s the evidence that clergy hate him? I don’t. I admire him but I would not agree with any suggestion that consensual under sex should be allowed. Never.

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Obvs innit – the clergy loathe anyone who undermines their privileged position. Look how they loathe Magna Carta.

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Off topic? You mean about things which aren’t happening.
Incidentally the article doesn’t mention the fictional great reset, you got that in yourself.
If you want to take health advice from a clergyman, please go ahead and natural selection will take you out of the gene pool.

Pat while it’s presented differently you have passed an anti vaccine/lockdown and virus sceptical link here. You said you wouldn’t do this again and may I ask you to remove it.

The actual evidence is that it is always safer to get the vaccine than the virus and the only hope we have of driving the virus to extinction is blanket coverage of the virus.
Neither this commenter nor Cardinal Vigano are competent to give health advice.

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8:06
It was off topic in that it was not related to pedophilia.
Are you omnipresent knowing all that’s happening everywhere?
The article was not giving medical advice, it DID mention the great reset and had links
to various references mentioned. But you didn’t bother to look at it.You would rather be paternalistic deciding what people should and should not read, as if people are thick.
It was not an anti-vaccine-lock down article nor was it giving health advice of any kind.
It was fundamentally concerned with Pope Francis and Vatican/Church politics in the contemporary world.

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No dear, the article said that lockdown doesn’t work.
My personal opinion is that the antivaxers should be put on an island and left there, because they are all serial killers.
Not paternalism – just making sure that fiction like yours doesn’t bring down a respectable blog like this.
The great reset? Isn’t happening.

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7.47pm
Er, how many times, Tatchell doesn’t believe in under age sex, he just referred, impartiality, rather as a social anthropologist might, that different cultures have a different expectation regarding the age of consent.
Er, where’s the evidence that clergy loathe Tatchell? What kind of evidence do you want other than my post which says that they do (notwithstanding your good self) and any other clergy who will say they adore Peter Tatchell.

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Tatchell’s pushing seventy now; I thought he had semi-retired. I’ve never looked at any of his stuff for years. He supports Ashers Bakery. He’s just an attention seeker.

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8.12pm

I remember the video of O’Boy going all Tarzan – Thatchell has more balls than any of them – How interesting that OBoy might have been exiled – he did seem like a little (or big) tyrant.
Allen Hall is an anvil isn’t it – their mettle gets tested and if there are problems they get punted on.
OBoy and Wilson were brown nosing CMOC but say what you like about Elsie if he don’t like ya ya gone baby ya gone!!
Michael Seed
George Stack
OBoy
Any other takers?

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Why did the previous Pastoral Director of Alice Hall, William Nichol ex Anglican fuck off to his native Sunderland recently. At the same time as O’Boy as senior staff got shifted out to St Albans. The Neo Cats rule the roost

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Totally agree @8.35pm if Vincent got a whiff if you were trying to court her you would be gone. Unlike some bishops who like that kind of thing.

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8.20pm
Completely agree – when I hear of a big fat legacy being given – Birmingham very prone to boasting about this particular one – what’s that all about – loose talk, loose lives!
I always think poor bastard, they would turn in their graves if they knew what their money was being spent on.
Parish priests and young curates think in terms of their ownership of the parish and the bank account.
One day parishioners will wake up but until then it ain’t your parish it’s theirs and don’t they know it and there’s nothing anyone can do about it.

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Birmingham, Bede, Aldo, Cousins, Quigley, Leonard, Penney, Maurice, Parg, Leo, Daly, Brain, Lamb, am I on the right track?

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Arthur Roche has voiced his disquiet to Francis over the whole former Anglican clergy carry on in England. Watch this space. He disagrees with the whole concept after enduring it.

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If he has, it means he’s just another bitchy cleric like yourself, jealous that they have private pensions and have been given plumb positions in the diocese.
But he hasn’t, and you’re just a bitch.

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Oh, please, 9:24 pm! I hope that + Roachie holds off until the end of the month. I do look forward to my copy of the new Anglican Ordinariate Office Book from CTS which I want to add to my BCP collection. I have the Antiochian Orthodox version but want the British RC version too. Jesu mercy, Mary pray!

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It is a sexual deviance like beasiality. An orientation has sexual attraction and the desire for relationship. Paedophilia only has gratification at the expense of the other, even if it causes pain and damage.

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