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9/11 – GOD ON TRIAL.

SERMON OF REV BILL DARLISON

Here’s a sermon I gave in the Dublin Unitarian Church on 16th September 2001, just five days after the events of 9/11. It was published a few days later in the Irish Times. Twenty years on, there’s not much I would change.

Rev Bill Darlison

                               The American Disaster

An American friend sent me an e-mail on Wednesday.  She lives in Washington and her husband works near the Pentagon, so she was understandably distraught, dazed, and fearful.  After expressing her own concerns, she expressed concern for me.  “It must be a very difficult time to be a minister of religion,” she wrote.  Those words didn’t register too clearly with me when I first read them.  I was still reeling from the shock of the terrible events we witnessed on Tuesday, but the truth of them gradually began to sink in.  After the disbelief, the unreality, there was the activity surrounding the special service we held here on Friday morning, but on Friday evening I was overcome with a feeling of despair, vulnerability, and fear – feelings which, I am sure, we all have now that the numbness has worn off and the pain of it all begins to creep in. 

But, mingled with all those feelings was the sense of responsibility that we ministers have – responsibility to comment, to explain, to advise, to give sermons like this one without much opportunity for reflection, and with none of the perspective that time and distance can provide.

  My friend, Marlena, was right.  It is difficult to be a minister of religion at times like this, so I hope you will understand my problem and excuse the unpolished and halting nature of this effort.  I have written this address while the wound is still raw, and I have undertaken to do it because I feel obliged to do so, but whether I’ll feel quite the same in a few weeks or a few months I cannot say. 

One of the big questions we ministers have to answer in times like these – perhaps the overwhelming question for many people – is, where was God in all this? 

Perhaps for contemporary Unitarians, who tend not to have such a clearly defined sense of divine providence as other religious groups, it is not so pressing, but it still has to be addressed. 

How can God, whom we refer to as Our Father, our loving father, allow such an atrocity to take place?  While we can just about understand how individual personal calamities might escape God’s attention, surely something of this magnitude could have, should have, been averted by divine intervention.

Alas, to think like this is to forget our history and the broader picture of our contemporary world.  Innocent lives are lost by the thousand daily – war, famine, natural disasters, preventable disease – and our past, even our relatively recent past, is littered with examples of human cruelty and terror too awful to contemplate – the Somme, the Holocaust, Stalin’s gulags, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the killing fields of Cambodia.  The list is as endless as it is horrifying, and if we are to call into question the existence of a loving God, we have more reasons to do so than that provided by the events of last Tuesday in New York and Washington.  I cannot even begin to approach this question with a cool philosophical detachment.  It has haunted me all my adult life and will never be satisfactorily resolved.  There are no glib answers.

All I can say is that my instincts tell me to stay with the idea that, despite the suffering and the tragedy, there is some point to all this, that human life is still worth living, that it is moving somewhere however obscure that goal seems to be, and that God is with us even though the pain and the sorrow seem to point towards His indifference and, at times, even towards His absence.

Elie Wiesel, the Jewish writer who lost his family members in Hitler’s concentration camps, tells the true story of a mock trial held by the Jews in Auschwitz. 

The rabbis in the camp decided to put God on trial for failing in his biblical promise to be the protector of Israel.  There was a defence and a prosecution, a judge and a jury; witnesses were called and questioned and, finally, the members of the jury were asked to vote.  And there, in the midst of the horrors of Auschwitz, God was found guilty as charged.  When the deliberations had ended, the senior rabbi spoke on behalf of the whole assembly:  “Now let us say our evening prayer,” he said.

The story speaks for itself, and that’s where I want to leave it. 

PAT SAYS

This sermon by Bill is a good sermon addressing why the loving God allows very things to happen.

I used this sermon yesterday with my own congregation to discuss the same big question.

Our conclusions were:

1. This is a difficult question and man’s brain is unable to answer it without saying that a. God does not exist or b. That God is a uncaring God – statements that Christians will not accept.

2. We decided that the heart and not the brain was the right organ with which to deal with God as the heart is capable of extremes when it comes to great joy or great sorrow.

3. We felt the rabbis and the Jews in Auschwitz handled it well, when after finding God guilty they turned to prayer. In this, they were doing what John Henry Newman did when he prayed: “O Lord I believe. Help my unbelief”

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110 replies on “9/11 – GOD ON TRIAL.”

The word “God” is a job title and it is wrong of Ratzinger to say that “He” is the same one for different adherents of different religions which evidently never needed to be the case or occasionally we have no way of knowing (I think it was Ratzinger who said that?)

Christian Scriptures don’t say God will judge people by their “adherence”, only by a Holy Spirit-strengthened quality of what they are doing for their fellows (and that doesn’t get explained in any “catecheses”, catholic or protestant).

This was why it was disastrous to abolish prayer and belief. I’m writing this for Mourneful Man, it would be sad if he doesn’t read it.

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Barrhead Granny can you contact bishop@rcdop.porg.uk with any information you have confidentially.

Paul has being using many names so the latest is Ryan can the Good people of the blog understand Ryan Black is a year ordained at been appointed to the Cathedral and Youth Chaplain.

The Ryan or whoever was at a Christmas night out 3 of the 1 Paisley who has be told Goodbye Evan.

The other two one is a Deacon in Oscott and the other was told not suitable however all three should have went after the fight.

Police Scotland is assisting both Dioceses.

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8.53
You certainly are a stalker and I am positive Jim S has more to do on a Saturday and Sunday than worry about a shoelace.
Go out to the Vineyard and do GOOD work and say your Prayers and more so for the Holy Father.

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As soon as you buy my ticket to the vineyard I’ll be off to Italy. As it happens my apostolate is holding up a mirror to church dysfunction and abuse – not that different to Pat’s really.

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Good post Pat. It is true. I recently lost a parishioner because they couldn’t understand how God could let some bad things happen to them. But, worst things did happen to me in my own life. And I stuck with God. I have never once blamed God for any bad thing that happened to me. And I’ve had plenty of opportunity believe me. But there is no bad in God. I don’t care what anyone says. Blessings and peace on you.

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Intelligent objective debate on the existence or activities of God is greatly affected by the evolvement of our human psychological and emotional search, and a reassuring need, for meaningful explanatory patterns to our existence. Human creation of gods, or God, has provided convenient reassurance. Belief is now so strongly implanted and reinforced by communal acceptance that relatively few question the basis of its underlying assumptions.
MMM

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Very good point well put Mourneman. My family thought church members thought for themselves, and we thought others approved of us doing so as well. Sadly so different now. It’s vital for church authorities and the pushier members to treat their fellows / underlings as agnostics of good will namely to let us choose our own sources of knowledge and criteria of judgment on issues. There is of late too much big gang mentality and saying we’re out of line. About the “problem of evil”, that only became a problem after the unrealistic (i.e lying) “prosperity preachers” surely?

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Thank you @ 12:46.
Your reference to “agnostics of good intent” is appreciated.
It’s a revealing phenomenon that followers of an allegedly compassionate merciful God continually interpret straightforward questioning of their beliefs with hostile ad hominem vitriol.
But then religion itself is a strange phenomenon, often used to separate the saved sheep from the doomed goats. While many Christians abhor Islamic jihadists yet their own religious Gospels also speak of hostility to non believers, and their fate, even after death:
John 3:18 & Matt 25:46
MMM

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In 3:18 Jesus is referring to grounds of judgment against those with a pharisaical attitude, which pals of Nicodemus were prone to, an attitude Nicodemus was already querying. Likewise 25:46 refers to pretend believers that are hard hearted towards their peers, the issue that crops up in James and in Isaiah 55, 58 and 61, and in all the talk of widows and orphans, and in the lament over the false revivalism under Josiah, sadly we hear of some nowadays. Neither verse spells out the degree or nature of their awaiting fate, which is presumably proportionate to their cruelty, and neither refers to outsiders. Whatever is going to happen, it will be degrees of integrity that will get a lot of us out in one piece. God let us be put on this planet in a hazardous corner of outer space. The Ninevites were saved from a foreseen disaster because they didn’t know their left from their right, and softened their cruelty, during the reign of “Make Israel Great Again” Jeroboam II, only a few years before they deported the Galileans. Colloquial talk tended to hyperbole and the repeating of proverbs but when Scripture was given out it was meant to be accompanied by the meaning of the teaching Jesus was giving, which was at greater length.

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There is two stalkers the one in Paisley / Motherwell who Bishop Pat seems to have deleted above as his accusation that Bishop Pat was holding pictures has gone.
Then the Jim S stalker however Jim S will likely treat it as caca.

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Jesus was humiliated, tortured and executed – fair to say therefore bad and evil things happen to good people.
I like to think that Jesus prayed, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me’ so that I don’t.

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He prayed my God why have you forsaken me in a rare moment of insight that his god either
-doesnt intervene in the world in which case he’s not interested and all religion is pointless
Or
– is omnipotent and could intervene but doesn’t in which case he is either a sadist, doesn’t give a shit or enjoys having people suffer.

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9.41
Your logic is poor.
The first of your alternatives concludes that because God does not intervene he is not interested.

He does not intervene because he gave us freedom – the quality in which we are most made in God’s image snd likeness.

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9:17 What you are describing is incredibly irresponsible parenting. In fact you clearly don’t believe in the Christian god because the whole point is that he does intervene.
Unless it’s only when he feels like it. QED.

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Amy Martin is another pro Brit like Daly before him. He does not represent me and many other Armagh priests.

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Armagh saggart at 8.26am

Agree.

By looking at him re photo, to me, he looks more British than Irish.

Just wondering, where was he born🤔🤔.

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Re ‘where was God in all of this’ is nothing new.
Cos of:
1st and 2nd world wars.
Auschwitz camp and other small extermination camps dotted around in Germany and Poland.
Abuses in deaf schools ran by rcc orders over many decades.
Received a text message yesterday that Bishop aka maynooth cover up (DLF) will be visiting deaf village at end of this month to give a speech. In case if you didn’t know that deaf village plc company is owned by Bishop of dublin. A money racket venture if you will.
Haven’t set foot in deaf village for years even though 3/4th building was knocked down to make way for new deaf village.

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It’s not Almighty God on trial, it’s the evil men who of the free will granted to to them committed these despicable acts. God can never be judged, it’s for Him to judge us.

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Agreed with 10:17. People have free will. There is absolute beautiful love in the world. There is also absolute horrendous evil.
On natural disasters, we are approaching the Autumn Equinox. Gravitational pull, the moon and the tides, solar cycles and the changing of the seasons are some of the impacts on the weather. So many different components and variables. This is before getting into man made impact on the climate of our shared home. Earthquakes, volcanoes etc. Climate and natural disasters are a topic in it’s own right.
On the topic of today’s blog:
1. People were put on trial for the crimes committed by the holocaust.
2. People were put on trial for crimes committed by Al Qaeda.
3. People have voted for the modern day holocaust of abortion. ☹️

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10.54: Anin: you are way off topic. Try to be intelligent. Pat, the priblem with suffering is always a complex one when we view it through the lens of faith in that, we argue that if God is so powerful and a moveable God, a God who is touched in pity for us, a God who could prevent catastrophe of any kind, then it’s natural to ask “why suffering” if we believe in an all powerful, caring, loving God? We have the gift of free will and therefore are free to make good and bad choices, to act wrongly or rightly, to create a better wirld or to ignore our responsibilities. If nations are at war, then politically, culturally, economically and rel7giiysly, confk7crs and differences are natural, iften ending in war which.brings death.God wiuld want all leaders to act prophetically with justice, integrity and to seek reconciliation. Human beings don’t always act responsibility for the common good, political leaders often being the worst protagonists of war, overlooking the innocents caught in their games. I blame these power greedy moguls for much suffering, pain, division and death. In the face if daily suffering in others – homeless, hunger, family hurt, beggars in out streets, those who have lutyle of life’s blessings – these are the areas where Jesus precisely asks us to allow God in us to be compassionate and caring, to allow him move us in pity so that we embrace all who are suffering and alleviate their pain. It’s human to ask “why” such pain in our wirld, “why” such suffering? When any of us sits by indifferently, then this pain and suffering will continue. If we respond and embrace those in awful situations, then we witness miracles. What can I do? What can we as communities do in the face of suffering? A great deal – through our compassionate responses and caring, we, Christians, allow God do great things. Did not God give us this beautiful earth? It is we, human beings who have fractured it. If we each truly cared for the earth and for humanity in their beauty and guftedness we might have a safer, better world. Thankfully, science and medical technology are advancing all the time in search of cures for insufferable and terminally painful illnesses. We must remember that in Christian theology we believe in God’s supreme redemptive act of love in the death of Jesus. Many – if not millions – find great comfort in their religious beliefs and prayer in times of immense destruction.

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10.04: I notice that in today’s narratives about natural disasters, the climate change argument is given prominence. Certain events are natural and can’t always be explained.

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Yes Pat. It is supremely illogical to say that God gave us free will but also intervened to save the world.
The poorly educated apologists of free will would be better advised to leave God out of it completely.
To bring up a really hot potato which is still a good illustration – why would God allow child abuse by his clergy which was then facilitated by the hierarchy. Especially as he so frequently’smote’ people in the Hebrew bible. To fail to engage with this apparent intervention followed by apparent lack of intervention and just say it is because of free will, is to fail to engage with the greatest mystery of the Christian faith.
And people wonder why the church is falling apart.

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@10:46. The questions you rightly raise, and the lack of possibility for any sensible logical response, highlights the total inconsistency of belief in an all powerful merciful God.

Many of the more able believers who follow this blog, will recognise this and simply continue with the emotional comfort of belief and its caring helpful practices. Their abilities and sensitivity tends to make them less likely to ‘circle their waggons’ and engage in hostile denunciation of non believers, or as another commentator writes, the “agnostics of good will.”
And the ‘less able’? Watch this space for the inevitable vitriol from the usual sector.
“By their fruits you will know them.” Matt 7:16-20.
MMM

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How come Seamus @ 5:54? Have they “returned” from afterlife themselves. Or maybe somebody reliable has “found out” and revealed the secret?
Pray tell.

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Sammy 5:10,
I’m mindful that people have different faiths and none. I humbly point you and others in the direction of the book: 7 Reasons to Believe in the Afterlife.
My knowing of the afterlife and someone else’s not believing of the afterlife is what it is. Both coexist and I’m comfortable with that.
Some testimonies are more appropriately given in person, depending on a shared experience and the conversation’s natural flow.
Peace be with all good people of good conscience.
Pax.

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10:46: Apologies, the predictive text caught me and I thought I had corrected my misspellings before sending the comments. No codes of any kind in operation….just silly mistakes.

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9.49am pat.
Quelle surprise, 🤭😉.
Quite surprised that he has a pro British mindset especially coming from bogside in Derry.
I have o fiach over him on any day.

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One of the interesting things about this ‘Catholic’ blog is that its owner lives in Larne, Co Antrim. Co Antrim has the second highest number of Protestants in Northern Ireland. Is it a factor in the tenor of the many critical comments made?

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I think very few of the comments come from Co. Antrim.

So far today, our readers are from 23 different countries.

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Id be surprised if he didn’t.

So far today we have two readers from the Philippines 🇵🇭

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I love clerical comments on here. They pontificate and want to put people right but nobody’s interested any more.
In fact they use the exact tone of voice in which they say,
You have to go to mass every Sunday.
Contraception is a mortal sin.
This is our little secret.
You’ll get in trouble if anyone finds out you made father do that.

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Its a long way from St Brendans in the Bronx. I remember him well…….I was at St Philip Neri on a summer placement….as was Michael Mullaney that summer…..he didn’t look after Mullaney as he did his friend Eamonn…..Richard Baker and Tommy Lynch were the luminaries then.

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Wills – dont speak ill of Elaine Martin she still has you listed on her website as CC
How is the postgraduate study going – Trinity College isnt it?

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11.12: A very immature, silly, unintelligent contribution. I guess you are not in possession of an intellect. Stay with the topic. You have expressed this same crap all too frequently.

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And, @12:20, it’s apparent that you fail to understand the relevance of that 11:12 comment. Yet you judge the 11:12 commentator to be ‘without intellect’ and relegate that
ironic insightful comment as “crap.”
Says more about YOU than 11:12.

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12:28 Don’t upset him he’ll ramble on for hours about how he gets it and understands. 🤣

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12:20 You copied and pasted the reply you make to any comment you don’t like, daddy.

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The non-atheist clerics have commented very well. Cynical cleric critic 11:12 was more interested in fouling the man than winning possession of the football. 10 minutes in the sin bin under the current black card rules.
Pax.

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Don’t get your socks in a fowl Seamus.
Don’t worry, I won’t tell anyone our little secret.

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Nope safe and sound. Fortunatly the art collection is in storage anyway. And the cellar is always replenished

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Ryan, Please see a psychologist or at least give Bishop Pat the chance to help you.
Ireland is worse than Scotland they have drug parties and the Daisy chain Scotland has Dinner and Sex parties.
The corruption in the Scottish Church was discussed on Saturday by Archbishop Cushley and Pope Francis.
Pope Francis only has audiences with Bishops on the Ad Limina or as President of the Bishops Conference and Archbishop Cushley was there for none of that.

He was there Thanks to this blog and the caring people that contacted the Holy See and the papal Nuncio.

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11:59am

Yer having a laugh🤣 caring people yer arse. You mean Jim S and any nosy eejits who follow his constant demands to contact Papal Nuncio’s. When of course as usual nothing is done.

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12.10….. with wine ? Or is the cellar you speak of more akin to a Pulp Fiction theme?

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Paddy Power is giving 100 to 1 on anything changing as a result…or this comment being true.

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11.59
Rubbish! Jim S. finds out late that Leo met Francis on Sat. and can’t get over the shock.

Pope Francis meets individual bishops outside of ad limina occasions every week. Today Michael Crotty was on the audience agenda. Jim’s a half wit.

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you mean; Eamonn “I think I’ll get an assessment done on you” Martin or Eamonn ” I have your file open in front of me” Martin ( his telephone line in Derry).

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11.38: Answer: NO. Now that you’re free of any and all responsibilities, is your holiday villa safe, William?

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I seldom bog for Irish readers ! Fratelli e sorelle, Buon Pomeriggio…..

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I notice the growing use of first names in place of anonymous….healthy progress and evolution towards more authentic contribution on this Blog.

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Best read on the theme of the blog today and all tangental themes: The Denial Of Death.
Ernest Becker ( first published 1973)

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Bill, what about ‘The Little Prince’ by Antoine de St. Exupéry? Didn’t Niall Aherne give you a copy at one stage? Did you read it whilst wearing your big long grey coat?

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Went to PP as I asked them, what’s the odds for mother Burke to be a Pope?

They hemmed and hawed re odds as they said they dont have one proper odds in their list. Asked them to think what’s the odds for mother Burke, they said anything from 25 to 1 to 50/1.

They will let me know when they have put it up on their boards.

Mother Burke at 25/1 to 50/1

Sarah at 12/1.

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Anon at 1.58pm
Thanks for your comments and tip as well re schonborn.
Don’t think parolin will get it as his diplomacy re China and lack of pastoral experience will go against him.
I think God will spring a surprise one…. Who knows??
Mother Burke not a chance but u never know.
Sarah a big possibility but would the cardinals want a black Pope or another white faced Pope.
Schonborn had me thinking, probably or maybe not. Who knows really😉🤔
Please note I don’t do political corrections such as coloured or hearing impaired so forth.

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I think it will be Bileen. We need a proper loon, not a half hearted loon like the last few. Bileen would suit, and he’d have some paintings to compensate for his silliness in mortgaging his previous collection

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Fancy Eamon Martin the Bogside boy trying to gain the ear of the Colonel-in-Chief of the Parachute Regiment, Prince Charles. The same Paras who murdered innocent unarmed Catholics in the same Bogside on Bloody Sunday. Keep the British Establishment happy Eamon at all costs.

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Most were shot in the back and unarmed on Bloody Sunday @2.29pm. The best Amy can do is whisper into the ear of the figure head and representative of those who murdered them. Martin’s name is mud in Derry.

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The German Betty Windsor of Buck House will go to her phoney Cathedral in Armagh soon after she leaves Balmoral in October. It will be hard to distinguish who will be the real Queen at that Partition Service given the presence of the Church leaders and other clergy in her presence.

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Eastwood in Derry is a big pal of Amy’s. Him with the small white patch in his beard whose Bro is openly Gay in England and well known fact.

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The PPS have decided that any charges against any Para on that day should be dropped. Let’s move on.

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The problem of evil is only problematic when you adopt a childish notion of God as a solely good sky daddy. The mature person of faith readily acknowledges the unity of good and evil in God, as indeed the Old Testament states outright. The theist who only acknowledges the good in God while refusing to acknowledge the evil is an atheist, refusing to believe because it doesn’t suit them, that’s not faith. Imagine if we did that with human beings, I’ll accept you if you do x,y or z, and I won’t if you do a,b or c, that’s a very conditional love and the root of all trauma. If God is pure existence, being qua being, we need to accept that sometimes God can be a bit shitty and not expect God to suit our narrow boxes.

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We do have to extricate God from our back pockets in order to be mature people of faith. I wonder if claiming there is evil in God is at odds with a theistic faith. Why evil happens is ultimately a mystery, not meaning that we just shurg our shoulders but rather that it’s significance is already and also not yet revealed in the suffering of Christ. We can sit not in pure darkness but rather anticipation with the big questions of evil and suffering. The ability to sit with our difficulties and those of others is lacking sometimes due to the desire to have all the answers immediately, which in turn can lead to unsatisfactory platitudes which only end up belittling the question.

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We must certainly believe that God allowed evil to come into existence and tolerates its continuing presence.

I don’t think that that amounts to there being evil IN God?

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What is the basic definition of God adhered to by all monotheists? That God is being qua being, pure being or existence itself. Both Aquinas and Aristotle both claimed that. (See De Ente et Essentia Chpt IV and the Bible itselt)
If God is existence itself, then everything that exists does so by participating in God’s existence. If evil exists then it does so by participating in God’s existence, God causes evil to exist otherwise, it couldn’t exist. The idea of evil being the negation of something is nonsensical and frankly outdated, how can something that isn’t something exist?
There is a clear statement in the OT where God states that He/She/It isn’t purely good.
Sticking our heads in the sand and pretending something isn’t the case doesn’t help us. Bringing something into conscious awareness, attempting to understand it and embracing it does. Is it any wonder atheists latch on to the idea of an immature notion of God when it’s being peddled by so many.

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1.58pn

No one on that list will be Pope.

They go into a Conclave as Pope they come out a Cardinal.

Everyone on that list tainted with corruption – Pasolini no way.

Money on it – next Pope wild card – coming from nowhere and unexpected.

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Anon at 3.58pm

No fat chance re Vinnie or NYC joker Dolan or any usa cardinals.

I would take my chances on mother Burke cos odds are high. I never know what will come out of the conclave.

You probably right re wild card.

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4.11
I’m afraid you are not good at reading form.
Burke has zero chance of election. He’s been demoted by Francis, wears extravagant garments that look like curtains, liturgical gloves, opposes the inexorable tendencies of today – gender equality in relation to ministry, same-sex equality etc.

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Deaf Guy
Mother Burke has long covid most likely most work again.
Mother is on a time bomb being over weight and breathlessness to contend with.
Like be someone in there 60’s to do a World Wide tour like Saint John Paul.

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Bishop Buckley, may I enquire as to how many hits you have on the blog from Australia in 24 hour period?

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That could be the same person logging in 9 times. Bad connection or even worse trying to follow Bileen

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Is this the same Prince Charles pictured with Archbishop Martin who was whispering into his ear who allegedly awarded a rich Saudi a Knighthood in return for cash recently. Money talks and money influences.

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Mr Eastwood from the Derry is a very handsome chap! But they will never get my vote I’m afraid. Elections should be abolished in the current format and referendums!

Giving Joe Bloggs a vote when he can’t even count to 10! Yeah that’s wise!

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Oh yes the newspapers are widely reporting it @6.42pm. A senior member of Charles’s staff has already resigned over it. Scapegoat maybe? The Royals since their existence are rotten to the core. Anyone who pays just to have a title is sad. Those who grant them it are even more despicable.

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Archbishop Leo’s meeting with the Pope on Saturday was mainly concerning the proposed moving of the Scots College into Rome.
The bus and taxi fares from the college into the fleshpots, saunas and nightspots in the Eternal City are prohibitive for the poor students.
Luckily those students from the Glasgow province needn’t fret when they come home on vacation. It has been reported that a parishioner of a south Glasgow parish has a hot tub/jacuzzi facility which clergy are most welcome to use.
As for the next Pope? My money is on Tagle!

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Bishop Pat, my Northwood contacts in Westminster have told me poor Monty, the new PP, is having trouble with his live streaming last week/end. There is nobody willing including his predecessor to enlighten him to the ins and outs of it. There was a picture on the live stream but no sound. Some regulars at St Matthews have already decided to walk elsewhere given Monty’s pedigree.

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It was OK for Martin to rub noses with Queen Elizabeth and Prince Charles. Why all the abuse when Archbishop Eamon is doing nothing different.

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