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PAUL VI MASS v TRADITIONAL LATIN MASS.

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I am not a fan of Archbishop Roche, who will probably be made a cardinal by Pope Francis at the next consistory. As the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, when he gives a lecture about the liturgy, we should reflect and engage with what he has to say even if we vehemently disagree. When he was the Ordinary of the Diocese of Leeds, he displayed a sustained hostility to the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) that was unacceptable. As a diocesan bishop, Roche (who is very personable one-to-one) did not show pastoral solicitude; nor, did he exercise ecclesiastical discretion. 

I take a pragmatic view about the TLM, if people wish to attend this form of the liturgy, let them, because, they are not doing any harm. However, they cannot be permitted to create a church within a church; their deficient ecclesiology cannot be given institutional credence. But, is also the case that people attend the TLM because they are in dismay at the state of the church, e.g., ex-Cardinal McCarrick and the never-ending tsunami of scandals involving sexual and financial misconduct.

A great number of (but not all) people who are diehard supporters of the TLM are driven by the misguided nostalgia to “recreate” a perfect church that has never existed. These people would do well to remember there has never been a golden age of the church.  They seem to forget that Liturgy is a participation in the salvific work of Christ. The celebration of the Eucharist as per the pre-Vatican II Missal has become a spectacle for those who wish to fetishise liturgical vestments on websites such as: 

https://www.newliturgicalmovement.org

It is also begetting the dangerous groupthink that priests who celebrate the TLM are beyond reproach and they can do no wrong. Church Militant, which is becoming increasingly Trumpian have eloquently shown that the evil of priests sexually abusing children is also an entrenched problem within the SSPX. 

Increasingly, I have found this observation to be true where you have priests wearing lace in the church in the morning — you have the same priests wearing leather in the evening at chemsex parties. 

The TLM will not “save” the church. It will not lead to an influx of vocations. Its supporters would do well to bear in mind that there are twenty-three Eastern Churches sui iuris in full communion with Rome that have distinct but equally legitimate liturgical traditions, ie, the Alexandrian, Armenian, Byzantine, East Syriac, and West Syriac Rites. Also, these churches have their own problems. And, they have corrupt and abusive clergy.

Those who take a traditional/conservative worldview about liturgy are rightly concerned with the unacceptable and erroneous view that Vatican II gave clerics a licence to recreate the church and by extension the liturgy in their own image and likeness. The unsympathetic modifications to churches and cathedrals were often misguided, ill-conceived, and driven by petty ecclesiastical politics. A point acknowledged by Cardinal Ratzinger when he was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

BURKE

It is important that we differentiate between Tradition and Traditionalists when it comes to liturgy. The two bishops that are heroes for traditionalists are Cardinal Burke and Bishop Athanasius Schneider. The former seems to becoming a conspiracy theorist and the latter is concerned by what he considers of the evil of taking communion in the hand. 

SCHNEIDER

Liturgical disputes are as old as the church itself. Nothing ever changes, and the sooner we accept that and make peace with ecclesiastical reality the better. 

PAT SAYS:

When I was ordained in 1976 I started celebrating and loving the Paul VI Mass.

1976

It is the Mass I still use and I have never used Benedict’s missal.

I like all 4 eucharistic prayers.

II and III are useful as not being too long.

I love IV as it lays out the history of God’s dealings with man.

I agree with our correspondent today that the Latin Mass on its own if fine. But it is not fine when it becomes a rallying point for the right-wingers.

I have NEVER celebrated Mass in Latin and would need a lot of tutoring to do so.

117 replies on “PAUL VI MASS v TRADITIONAL LATIN MASS.”

What about the truly devout who attend the TLM? Yeah! Just write them off as fettishists, people confusing true spirituality with garments and rubrics. Who are you to gaze into another person’s soul and who appointed you to be their judge? “I say these prayers and they say those prayers; I’m current and they’re old-fashioned”. Piss off with your Tribunal on taste which is only a coarse display of your own superficiality on the surface of your little pond irrigated by compulsive relevance and popular, vulgar, opinions. Your condescension and your vapid opinions are annoying because they are so transparently see-through that only an idiot who needs the affirmation denied to the lonely would subscribe to in the hope of popularity.

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2.58: A necessary and balanced, insightful comment. There is sadly, a sneering, condescending contempt shown to all who enjoy The Latin Mass. There are extremes of course, but there are also horrible, sloppy, unprayerful expressions in modern liturgy which have destroyed a true sense of the mystery of the Sacred. Pat has allowed a nasty narrarive to occur about TLM suggesting that all who adhere to it are crazy, dress lovers, kinky and weird. I loved TLM in its day and felt its beauty, awe, wonder and prayerfulness. I know people who still honour TLM and they are salt of the earth, clergy included. The effeminising of clerics and others who enjoy the rirual and rubrics of TLM are from the closeted, nasty, bitching misfits who probably never pray, attend mass or light a candle. The enemies of the Latin Mass are as you rightly say, vapid, vacuous and empty but very ignorant.

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2:58
Obviously your attendance at TLM has not yet had the desired effect on you if speak in such an abusive manner.
Liturgy is supposed to glorify God and sanctify humanity. If it doesn’t do the latter it has failed in the former.

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Does everybody that comments on here, not get laid and are single, apart from the bitter priests pretending to be humans ….
Or does everyone have a chip on their shoulder…
Just asking….

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3.37: I suggest you head back to school to learn basic English. Your comment is so unintelligent and poorly constructed. Try to get beyond your a**e brain!! Twat:🤡🤠🤡🤠☻☻…

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12.12 ouch! I love it when you talk dirty to me! 😉
Must of hit a nerve there, I take it your single and unsexable? 😂 Or just a chip on your shoulder…

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Miss(single) Jane Brody .. Seeing as its not Mrs, all my comments are designed for a reaction, your a bigger fool at your age to be playing into it…
I’m not a bitch, I’m thee bitch and its MS Bitch to you!

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And miss Jane, you can’t fix stupid girl, daddy can’t buy you cop on in trinity, as the old saying goes!

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12.56
Aw you little sweaty pie, your too good for those bitches!
Your an exception 😉☺️

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I don’t get laid, I have tried but every time it brings back the voice of Father saying ‘God wants you to obey’.

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4.38 😂😂 I like you!
God isn’t here my dear nor does he pay the bills… unleash the beast 💪😎

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It’s Old Mother Reilly who’s only goal in life is to upset ageing homosexuals who think if they hadn’t been brought up Catholic their lives would have been so much more exciting

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Patsy, you say that the Latin Mass is fine as long as it does not become a rallying point for right wingers. I say The Novus Ordo is fine if it is celebrated according to the rubrics, but it is not fine when it become a rallying point for left wingers which it has become over the years.
These so called liberal left wingers have tried for over fifty year to get rid of the Tridentine Mass it hasn’t worked, nor will it. There is nothing more Illiberal than a Liberal when you don’t agree with them. For those of us who prefer the pre. Vatican II liturgy, it is not just the venacular what we don’t want, it is standing for Holy Communion, Holy Communion in the hand and all the other numerous changes that came along with it. So no matter what his humbleness and his minions like cockroach try it will not make any difference. The Tridentine Mass will endure till the end of time long after the left wing freethinking mad mods are toast!

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@8:42am
I don’t think anyone would want the smell or the whiff of sheep about them perhaps that’s why nobody stands close to oul bergo. Most people would rather have Gucci and Trent would be a better destination than present day Rome which has the stench of corruption and a lot more..

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4.40
Trent a better destination?
Really is that so?
There were five popes in office during Trent:
– Paul III had four children by his mistress.
– Julius III made a 15-y.o. monkey tamer a cardinal and share his bed with him.
– Marcellus II and
– Paul IV took no part in the council.
– Pius IV had at least 3 children by his mistress.
It helps to know a modicum of history.

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Latin Mass clergy don’t have about them the smell of sheep but rather the whiff, if not stench, of repressed (or not so repressed) homosexuality and a sense of their own self-importance.
It’s like Charismatics have a t-shirt that reads: ‘God loves you but I’m his favourite.’
And TLM brigade have one that has the quip: Taxi driver to priest? ‘Where do you want to go? TLM priest: ‘Take me to Trent.’’

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5:37pm

Hi! Granny see you’ve popped back from Academia perhaps you should learn a modicum of whats going on in present day Rome. Drug fueled homosexual orgies in the CDF and all the rest that is going on in that den of inquity. So I still prefer Trent at least they had the consolation of the true Mass.

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5:15
The church is clear that the novus ordo is not a fake mass. If you think the old rite is the true rite, it is on your own authority and you are a Protestant.

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With a church in crisis it would seem necessary to find more efficient means to reach out to those alienated by communicating a message of the Gospel in a contemporary way that is down to earth; therefore who is the genuis that decides to say mass in Latin then? The logic is lacking

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May I ask a question – (please bear with me) I’m a layman and a cradle Catholic but I don’t remember priests wearing especially thick and starched collars – the priests I knew growing up wore what I would call unpretentious collars – just normal I guess but these days I see clergy wearing these thick and very white collars who talk about ‘the faith’ and make God sound scary – last night on the news a priest from Brentwood I think he was the VG – he had one on – very white (like it had been starched) and unusually thick and seemed very severe and harsh – the collar seems to covey something – is an especially thick dog collar some kind of of clerical code or simply a wardrobe malfunction?

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Old a hook priests who were arroofantcinctge old trouble says, we só ignorant, turned uo a house, choise their seat and smoked away expecting people to not only understand their point, they expected, arrogantly so!

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Mother Burke survived her Covid scare as is now convinced the Lord preserved her in life to reform the Church, beset with so much confusion and error to the tremendous and even mortal harm of many souls. She is gasping for breath but will put on the mantle of her cappa manga to wage war against the Supreme Pontiff.

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@10:16am
His Eminence Raymond Cardinal Burke has survived thanks be to God. Lets hope he is soon able to wage war against oul fanny who is spreading error and confusion and mortal harm among the faithful.

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4.49
Bella, you are barely literate. How would you know error if it socked you in the mouth?

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Sono qui, thank you for your enquiry ( whoever you are ) , I am not sure this Pope is a Catholic…. his sense of the Universal seems to be defined by himself… like wojtywa who turned the “ Universal Church “ into a Polish Parish ( very successfully). Bergoglio is hemmed in by a Jesuitical mind… what exactly he is “ open” to is not evident, he uses fog to cloud out what exactly he is at…The Latin Liturgy was a rich ritual… the liturgy as is now in the English speaking world is entirely dependent on the ability to read well and is impoverished by the cult of personality….A wise leader would make room for all… though the cabal might tear him/ her to shreads. If you let people know that they think… they love you. If people are made to think… they look for a scalp. Bergoglio thinks he’s masterful. I have no proficiency in Latin but I do understand it conveys meaning that the banality of English can never teach.
Anyway… thanks for the request whoever you are …. 😂😀….. the emoji expresses what is now offered in Liturgy… absent of so much.

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Pat, do you think Baby Boomer organisations such as the ACP and “We are Church” are divisive? What about eg Polish Masses in the UK and Ireland? Are they divisive?
Finally, the Catholic Church is made up of over 20 Churches in communion with Rome. Should we abolish those and not permit their liturgies outside their geographical heartlands or insist on Paul VI’s banal Novus Ordo Missae for everyone, everywhere?

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The supposed “left wingers”, liberal minded guys still believe they have the panacea for all correct forms of prayer and liturgy. We need only look at the muck, slutty porno images and vilifying caca spewed out on this blog to quickly realise that their offering is all built on sands and effects little inner change. It’s empty, lovey dovey stuff and where the Oratory is concerned, all makey up, day by day. There is no depth.

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+ Pat: Most of the guys who do celebrate Mass in Latin have not a Scooby about Latin and just learn it by rote. They are really stuffed when they have to pray a preface on a feast day that isn’t one of the usual ones. They do not understand what they are saying. Now, if they were to take themselves seriously, they would spend time learning about the language, rather than just climaxing over what bit of lace or brocade vestment they are going to be wearing. It’s a game for them. Most of them haven’t any real understanding or theological affiliation to the Latin Mass. It is just a stage for them to play on. I guarantee that for the most of them the rest of their lives is a far cry from their traditionalist, moralistic facade ! Once you get past the dressing up and the faux piety and the play acting, it’s a very different picture.

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11.42: Another generalised judgment. Most unkind and untrue. What, we may wonder, are your closeted kinks? Mr. Floosy….👒👠👒👠…

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How many are you talking about? In England the nearly all of the Masses said are the Supper of the Lord 1969. The Instuite of Christ the King has two churches in Preston,one on the Wirral, one in Shrewsbury, one in Cornwall and one in Torquay. The Fraternity of St Peter has one church in Warrington and one church in Reading. The English Oratories have the majority of their Masses according to 1969 Missal, London, Manchester,York and Oxford all have one Low Mass on a Sunday, Birmingham has one Low one High. The number of Diocesan priests saying Low Masses regular can’t be very high, there’s one Low Mass in St James Spanish Place, two at St Bedes Clapham park, one at St Augustines Oxford just as examples. The list on the Latin Mass Society’s website is hardly long. So the majority of masses are new and the majority of priests are not interested in the old form at all.

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The majority of priests are old; the young priests will rebuild from the wreckage that the boomers are leaving behind.

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2:02 Thank you for a well reasoned comment, and your braveness in admitting Roman Catholics are not Christian. If they were, and attended the supper of the Lord, it may show some fruit in charity.

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3:10 The young queens won’t be rebuilding anything: they’d be too frightened of breaking a fingernail or dirtying their soutane.

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Pat you say you love Eucharistic Prayer 4. Why do so many priests not use it. I think I could count on the fingers of one hand the amount of times I have heard priests use it. And why do some priests only use Eucharistic Prayer 1. There is one priest in Cloyne Diocese Fr. Gabriel Burke who I have only ever heard him use number 1.

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Part of the reason is that many priests think that lay people are thick peasants who would find Eucharistic Prayer IV too difficult to understand.

That also explains why most homilies are of the bland “Thought for the Day” type, or just a rehash of the readings that the congregation heard minutes before. They think the laity won’t understand anything deeper than that.

I often wonder why priests have such a long and expensive course of philosophy and theology, when none of that is reflected in their preaching. They might as well just have the few weekends of education that permanent deacons receive before they are allowed to preach. The permanent deacons preach at the same standard as the priests, if not better.

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1:52 I do basically agree with what you say but I think there’s also a paucity of deep thought, learning, or spirituality in the clergy. Cf after several decades nobody has even suggested a theological response to the abuse crisis, and this isn’t only because they’re not bothered, it’s because they can’t marshall sources and apply them.
Look at the queeny, bitchy retorts you get here – such are not capable of deep theological reflection themselves and are therefore incapable of leading the assembly to deeper understanding.

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1.52: It’s hard to please every one. The homily is meant to be an evangelizing message of hope, an exegesis on the Word just spoken and an application of its relevance. People don’t want intellectual homilies in philosophy or high theology. Our preaching is meant to open up, share and reflect on the Word of God. The Gospel of Christ is central to preaching. It’s not an easy task produce inspiring homilies every week and certainly not after officiating at 5 funerals…O God, come to our aid.

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How clericalist to say (and proving my point):
“People don’t want intellectual homilies in philosophy or high theology.”
Why bother with expensive six and seven year courses, if that is the case, and the even more expensive postgrad courses the parish dodgers do?

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My favorite bible passage is the one just after where Jesus tells his disciples not to rock the boat. He goes on to tell them that they must be bland, never challenge anyone or question anything and then claim that this is what the people want.
There is an early midrash on this passage, although disputed and only in one manuscript (Vatican) which reads ‘fuck you’. Subsequent exegetes have attempted to blame Westcott and Hort for this interpolation.

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4.42
It has nothing to do with theological training and everything to do with what Pat Buckley pointed out in one of his books; A seminary is like a fish factory , the first thing they remove is your spine( or thereabouts… words may be slightly different in the text.. but not much). That is why the ridiculous seven years is required… and now from my understanding they are adding to it !!!! To check on the “ salesman” warranty of their product. Nothing to do with theology. They certainly try to knock that out of their priests !

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Thanks for replying Bull – I honestly don’t think the removal of the spine and a lack of theology are exclusive and both your view and mine happen.
I think you will agree that a more theologically literate clergy would be less supine!

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4.42: As life unfolds as a priest you learn to :listen” to a congregation. I was in two upper class parishes where I used my “learning” very smartly – and sharing my “intellectual” grasping of faith/theology and modern issues went down very well but I still ensured that the Word of God and its relevance, insofar as I could ascertain that, was a primary focus. In less well established, socially deprived communities, you discern a relevant approach and become aware of expectations. To dive into theological and philosophical insights through a homily is fine when necessary but those who gather for the Eucharist want spiritual nourishment in prayer and cebration and appreciate the empathy, compassion and understanding of human life given by priests who dare to share a little of personal struggles. I look to Jesus sitting on a river bank “teaching, preaching and healing” – we must remain close to his way of touching hearts not necessarily the minds of people!! Intellectual preaching rarely touches the heart…

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1.11: Pat treats us to his photo gallery all too frequently. Are we suppose to frame this abd all photos for memorabilia? Why such narcissism with photos? Not that they are aesthetically or photogenically attractive!! I’ve rarely, if ever seen SACRED imagery except in animation mockery and sneering, on his blog. Never seen images of Christ, SACRED Heart of Jesus or Mary. I wonder about the integrity and efficacy of Buck’s spirituality…

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For the millionth, millionth, millionth time, Rory, McCamley, Dirty Dick, McCarrick, Weurl, Tobin, Cocco, Barros, Zanchetta, Inzoli, the PP of Pomeroy etc, etc, etc were TBM men, they have no interest in the TLM.

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The Traditional Latin Mass is the only Mass that holds any theological significance. Anyone who supports an alternative is quite frankly going to Hell. You know who you are.

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Indeed Joseph. I’m guessing you change into your traditional Latin mass gear and prance around like an old queen.

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@2.30pm Joe, I have already had to correct another of your posts. Now I find you are rude. Stop and think before you post such ridiculous comments.

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I do not need an illiterate armchair theologian to “correct” me. You lack the basic intelligence to understand an intellectual argument. Go back to your mum’s basement.

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My over riding concern re TLM societies as such was their need for absolute obsessive secrecy when it comes to abuses. That’s why so much silence surrounding TLM societies such as SSpx. Their claims of being holy just because they presided the Latin Mass won’t wash with me.

Cos of too much deference being handed over with is the problem as I see it. If you give a priest too much deference thus it will have given them or him a full license to do anything that they like or can even if it comes to abuses.

Thats where they take your message as permission re deference. There was a lot of deference in TLM as I saw it. It doesn’t mean that they are untouchables.

If you don’t give them deference then TLM societies or TLM priest as you keep them on their toes. Then it’s good.

CM investigation on SSPX is a case in point re the above.

Thats the problem I see with TLM re deference. Funny enough I don’t see it in NO mass.

Why is that🤔🙄

I have no objection as regards to TLM itself. I found the TLM prayers were effiacious. For instance, I got caught up in new age therapies re healing. Cos I was looking for healing from abuses. It was my mistake as I didn’t know that certain new age therapy has demonic elements in it. I had to go to mass to get rid of it. It was NO mass at first as it took up lot of consuming efforts to get rid of the effects.

But when I went to TLM as I noticed it was quicker and somewhat effective in getting rid of demonic effects in me. It was their efficacy prayers that may have worked for me personally. NO mass took ages to get rid of it. I understand Gabriele Amorth comments on their efficacy.

However it doesn’t mean I’m a fan of TLM cos of my concern as regards to people giving their full deference to TLM priests.

Thus giving them a full unopposed license to do anything that they (TLM priests or societies) like or want to etc. TLM is fine in my view but TLM societies, NOT. That’s my point or message.

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I’ve worked in RC churches in both England and Ireland, and attended Mass in other countries too. I think it’s fair to say that churches that offer Mass in Latin are experiencing a growth in congregations. Christ the King on the Antrim Road in Belfast is a good example – I went there twice, and both times it was full, with a noticeable number of young families present.

My gut feeling is that the use of the Latin language is not what attracts people to these churches, but rather the care taken over the liturgy and the reverent atmosphere. Contrast this with many of the more ‘mainstream’ Irish RC churches – priests in an obvious rush to get Mass finished in the shortest amount of time possible; sacristans faffing about in the most holy part of the church, the altar area, in jeans and t-shirt; appalling singers bellowing awful music into far-too-loud sound systems; no Mass booklets or handouts or anything that helps anyone engage with and learn from the Liturgy.

I didn’t understand a word of what was going on at Christ the King, but there were beautifully clear handouts that explained the meanings behind the liturgy, with everything needed to be able to take part in the Mass as appropriate. The the whole Mass unfolded with a sense of purpose and reverence that meant that I didn’t notice that it took a fairly long time (1hr 20, or thereabouts). I think the language issue is a distraction from the real issue – the church (and the Irish church seems particularly guilty of this) doesn’t appear to take its acts of worship seriously, and probably therefore can’t expect congregations to take it seriously either.

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I suspect the abuses that 2:46 bewails go back to the old days but have little to do with the ipssima uerba of the 1970 Missale. Indeed that service book inherited the slovenliness of the Trentish days.
Men used to stand at the back of the church, knelt for the elevations and most made a beeline to the doors, procured the Sunday papers while lighting up their first Camel in twenty minutes. Mind you I’m talking about low mass which was sort of a Zen experience softened by an occasional Dne Deus and Hanc igitur vocalized. High mass was much more fun. Solemn mass even more so.
Oh, I just thought of a little book I used to sell by an Anglo-Catholic vicar which is referenced in Dean Ladd’s book on the liturgical movement. Yes, “Ceremonial Curiosities” by Forse or some such name. I believe that it’s still on line. Quite interesting about the old days.

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When priests gaze into the nave and see only old ladies looking back, do they blame themselves and think that maybe the Vatican II renewal thing didn’t work out?

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The Paul VI Novus Ordo “mass” was nothing other than the Holy See appeasing the laity for financial development and a position at the geopolitical table – all the expense of giving true reverence to our Lord and Saviour. Fatima warned us.

It quite literally turns its back to Christ in order to face the congregation. It is nothing other than a lamentable and contemptible pantomime.

O sic fecit.

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Blessings.
I just can’t quite believe a Bishop of Holy Mother Church would advocate anything less than tradition.
The language isn’t the point, of course. Rather the willing bowing to public pressure by Roncalli, Montini and all of those who followed them – all at the cost of revering he who died so willingly for us.
The Vatican has abandoned Christ. The one true church remains outside its walls, at least.

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The perception that old rite congregations are growing is so wrong footed. For example the example above of Christ the King in Belfast is one church. Similarly here in Birmingham there is a good turnout for two masses at the oratory – again the equivalent of one church.
What is actually happening is the turnout shows that the support for the old mass is one church’s worth in a city, or even a diocese, and many of them may travel a considerable distance. What we are really seeing is a minority antiquarian interest spun as a flourishing thing.
There is a little more mileage in the idea that trad religious orders are growing however they’re all distinctly odd when you get inside.

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I think that might be the point that 2:46 above was trying to make. If the younger families are travelling a considerable distance rather than propping up the ageing congregations in their own church, then perhaps there’s something to be learned there? In any case, I agree with the assertion above that it isn’t necessarily the ‘old Mass’ that people go for, and that they’re looking for something reverent, whatever form is used.

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4:45 Are you meaning to imply that the church should aim for the demographic inside the church which is perceived to be younger and not actively shrinking?
Why?
The mission of the church is to everyone and to narrow the focus is to engage in the managed decline approach, whether it is intended so or not!

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The days of large families has gone.
Many Chapels that were built in housing estates need to move as the housing estates are demolished.
Rationalisation of Buildings is taking place NOT Faith.

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There are too many churches open as it is. Look at the city end of the Falls Road – St. Peter’s, Clonard, St. Paul’s and St. John’s all on a two mile stretch of road. They’re aren’t exactly bursting at the seams for each Mass.

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4:16
Thanks for an interesting and thought provoking response. I haven’t known what you are describing happening but it may well be.
What I was getting at was, those supporting the old mass are about one church’s worth in most places. I deliberately didn’t touch questions of age or decline elsewhere because I was simply talking about numbers.
However if every other church in this city closed because everyone died out, the TLM crowd would still only be enough to keep one church going.
The old mass is not a point of growth and revival, its a minority interest.
If people really want the church to revive they would be better to stop bitching and politicking rather than cosset lace queens.

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Ah your no fun pat, block me if your disregarding my comments and reality, if your readers are delicate fairy’s!

#snowflakegeneration

Goodluck!

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Most interesting that some of the comments today supporting the demise of the Traditional Latin Mass are suggesting that modernity alone is a valid reason to change from tradition. The foundation stone of the true Church has been built upon by centuries of tradition and established practices. Turning to secularism will result in ruin. Values and heritage have developed, they should not be thrown out for the sake of popularity. The Roman Church must resist all attempts to change established tradition.

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@5.44 Joe, I am very sorry to say that you do not understand the meaning of the concept ‘tradition’. Tradition does not mean that ideas and related practices stopped at a certain time. What is cited as traditional changes, often in brief periods of time. I can only suggest you read more intelligent sources and open your mind like an intelligent human being. To do otherwise is to remain in your rather delusional, poorly informed state.

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I’m a great supporter of traditional marriage and if you have enough goats will happily sell my daughter to you.

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There are over 3,000 Catholic parishes in England and there are 47 Sunday Masses in the Old Rite, there isn’t a Latin Mass Brigade and the priests are not all lace by day leathers by night, it’s a complete myth.They are a tiny fraction of the Catholic population but they are an unhelpful reminder of the former Catholic religion

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oul Gossip Alert@6:43pm
You’ve just gave yourself away, an unhelpful reminder of the ‘former Catholic religion’ There is only one Catholic religion which has been changed beyond recognition by the mad mods. I’m glad even you have noticed it. But worry not it will return as the 3,000 parishes you talk about are all mostly empty The Polyester Brigade will die out and only a few like you clinging to your pink basques will remain.

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I love the way you can tell the clerical comments on here a mile off by the bitchiness and particular way they make sexual references.
Going by them today the church is well and truly doomed. 🤡👼🧑‍🤝‍🧑🧑‍🤝‍🧑🧑‍🤝‍🧑👬👫👭👨‍👨‍👦👨‍👨‍👧👨‍👨‍👧‍👦🌈🌈🌈

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6.50: I believe there are just a handful of priests who bother with Pat’s blog by way of commenting. Many read it but don’t contribute as they’ve found over time that engaging in a serious, intelligent way was not valued and often sneered at. There are many non clerics, ex clerics and ex seminarians who seem to have many chips on their shoulders are are often very vindictive and vengeful against their former colleagues, associates and the Church itself, which in many instances gave these critics their education for free!! Some make worthwhile arguments but the few scorned, unhappy clerics and many “ex’s” are catty all too frequently and engage in bitchy, nasty behaviour.

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Our Catholic theology has abandoned Thomism, the ontology, and the epistemology. Our theology seeks impetuous and false humanities, so we have lost the belief that became concrete within the faith.

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What’s this Paul 6 vs Latin Mass. Jesus never said mass. Didn’t speak Latin either Are we missing the pint or the point Sad really

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It’s the Roman Rite it doesn’t claim to be a reproduction of the Last Supper using the original Aramaic or Hebrew it’s how it came to Rome and was continued

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All those degrees and priests and bishops still can’t manage not to fuck up, go on forced sabbaticals, ex communicated and or moved, as I said daddy can’t buy you cop on in trinity!

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All these priests and bishops with degrees that are corrupt getting away with murder that are not being outted or caught yet that are reading these blogs and comments, taking advantage … calling ye the twats and bitter!
Trust me 😊
No amount of

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Blessings.
I just can’t quite believe a Bishop of Holy Mother Church would advocate anything less than tradition.
The language isn’t the point, of course. Rather the willing bowing to public pressure by Roncalli, Montini and all of those who followed them – all at the cost of revering he who died so willingly for us.
The Vatican has abandoned Christ. The one true church remains outside its walls, at least.

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In the mid 70’s I was in High School here in the US. We had a local parish that started using corn tortilla chips and beer to be more relevant. Then the Chaplain of my Catholic School on a small retreat invited non-Catholic and non-Christian attendees to come forward for communion, as it was just a symbol of our love for one an other. This drove me to start going to the two local Byzantine Rite Catholic parishes for Sundays and holy days. I went further after I heard about the SSPX, and entered their seminary, as my visits to two seminaries, (the local Diocese and a Religious House) had professors who were openly advocating the equal rights of active homosexual couples and denying that monogamy was healthy.
In the SSPX, I found both great devotion, and an ossified fortress mentality. My difficulty with the SSPX included the lip service to Canon Law and a blatant disregard for it. I ended up supplying for older priests who offered the Old Rites in rented halls, where bishops were willing to turn a blind eye if the priests did not condemn Vatican II or the local Ordinary.
Upon the election of Pope Benedict XVI I returned to full communion with the Holy See. It took that long to realize what I had already known, and filter through the academically good formation of the SSPX, and root out the biases that came along with it.
While I realized the aberrations that pushed me into the Society were not as prevalent as previously reported. So too sound Catholic Theology teaches us that the Sacraments are the action of Christ, not my personal playthings as a priest. For a valid Mass, wheat bread, grape wine (with the admixture of a little water) need be offered to the Father, the priest must pronounce the words of institution and he must consume the consecrated elements. This while at least having the intention of doing what the Church does, or intends. So if the Mass is the action of Christ, and to be licit is a rite approved by the Church, (I never doubted the validity of the New Rites) then who was I to question any approved rite of the Church. Moreso, how could I like some of my SSPX classmates, or the radical left who wanted to disassemble anything that hinted of tradition, not accept that any Mass in any Rite approved by the Church is the opportunity for us to mystically stand or kneel at the foot of the Cross. I still encounter some parishes where the priest who takes liberties with the Liturgy leaves me praying to be charitable, but I’ve seen “traditional” priests ignore the rubrics too. I try to focus on what I’m there for. To witness the act of our salvation, re-presented to us by Christ Jesus

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