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POPE FRANCIS TIGHTENS RESTRICTIONS ON LATIN MASS.

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ROME — Pope Francis has approved further clarifications regarding restrictions on the traditional Latin Mass in an effort to ensure that liturgical reform is “irreversible” and that liturgical celebrations adhere to the changes made after the Second Vatican Council.

The clarifications, published Dec. 18, ban priestly ordinations and confirmations in the old rite and limit the frequency in which priests who receive a dispensation to celebrate the traditional Latin Mass can do so.

The Vatican’s Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments released the responses to 11 questions (or dubia) prompted by Francis’ July 16 decree, Traditionis Custodes, which limited the use of the traditional Latin Mass.

The responses, which are addressed to the presidents of Catholic bishops’ conferences around the world, were approved by the pope during a meeting with the head of the Vatican’s liturgy office, Archbishop Arthur Roche, on Nov. 18.

Roche, in an introduction to the new text, said that each norm has the “sole purpose of preserving the gift of ecclesial communion” with the pope.

In explaining his original decision to reimpose restrictions on the traditional Latin Mass earlier this year, Francis lamented that it had become a source of division in the church.

Since then, the decree has become a lightning rod for a vocal minority group of Catholics who still favor the traditional Latin Mass, many of whom also have expressed skepticism or even outright rejection of the reforms of Vatican II and of the legitimacy of Francis.

Among the reforms of Vatican II was the approval of the translation of the liturgy into the vernacular, in an effort to make the Mass more accessible and involve greater participation of the laity. In 2007, Pope Benedict XVI relaxed restrictions on the Latin Mass in an effort to foster greater unity with breakaway Catholic groups.

In an interview last month, Roche said that after years of trying to offer concessions, such as through the continued use of the old Mass, those efforts have “not entirely been successful” and it is time to “go back” to the principles of the Second Vatican Council.

He reiterated that message in his introduction to the new responses, saying that he was saddened that participation in Mass, and in particular, Holy Communion, has become “a cause for division.”

“It is the duty of the Bishops,” he added, “to safeguard communion.”

The new guidelines enact an outright ban on priestly ordinations and confirmations according to the old rite, although they provide an exception for parishes where only the traditional Latin Mass is celebrated and allow for the celebration of baptism, confession and marriage under the old rite.

The new guidelines also explain that if a priest has received the dispensation to celebrate the traditional Latin Mass but does not accept the “validity and legitimacy” of the concelebration of Mass, especially at the Chrism Mass (where all of the priests gather to concelebrate together with the bishop), then the concession must be revoked.

In his July decree, Francis also said that approved groups who use the traditional Latin Mass can no longer use regular parishes for their Masses and that instead, bishops must find an alternate location for them.

The new guidelines allow for the bishop to approve use of a parish church if another location is “impossible,” but state that the decision must be made “with the utmost care” and that the celebration of the traditional Latin Mass cannot be listed in the parish’s Mass schedule “since it is attended only by the faithful who are members of the said group.”

In addition, it notes that the Mass cannot take place at the same time as other “pastoral activities” taking place at the parish.

Further, the responses clarify that priests who receive the dispensation to celebrate the traditional Latin Mass are only allowed to do so at one Mass per day and that deacons and instituted ministers participating in such celebrations must be authorized by the diocesan bishop.

The document also states that if a diocesan bishop is to grant permission to priests ordained after the publication of Traditionis Custodes, that the bishop must first be authorized by the Holy See to do so.

PAT SAYS

I am pleased that Francis is taking on the anti Vatican 11 Latin Mass brigade.

The vernacular Mass IS the norm since the council

There is no real need for Mass in Latin.

And it has become a rallying point for those who don’t accept Vatican 11 and the pontificate of Francis.

THE VISIT OF MARY TO ELIZABETH

193 replies on “POPE FRANCIS TIGHTENS RESTRICTIONS ON LATIN MASS.”

This is all about control, I should be able to worship God in the manner I choose. Francis will be gone soon, TLM will be here forever. Francis is the smoke of Satan in the Church, he is the AntiChrist.

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9.43
And you are not a Catholic, Bela Lugosi.

There was a time when the test of one’s Catholicism was one’s level of loyalty to the Pope.

What an obnoxious final sentence. If that’s the fruit of hearing the TLM, what you say is the strongest argument for absolute abolition i.e. without exception.

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Where did this hyperpapalist doctrine of loyalty to the current pope as the test of Catholicism come from? What if they are bad popes? Also, we are Christians, not popians.

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@ 11:17am
Did you not know? Bella Lugoosi is a mid-western church-going Harrington Rd groupie.
She’s not a Waterford woman.

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Oul Gossip Alert @ 11:31am

I wondered how long it would take you to arise from your pit spouting your usual gibberish. There was indeed a time when ones level of loyalty to the Pope was a sign of fidelity to The Church. That time is long gone, when the present incumbent is forever giving out heretical statements and who would ever have thought a pope would have a statue of the apostate and arch-heretic luther in of all places The Vatican!

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11.25

1870. Papal Infallibility. Paul Cullen heavily influenced it. As the popes temporal power ebbed ( Italian Unification), they moved to something even more powerful. Interesting, A Lunacy Regulation ( Ireland) was passed in 1871. That Act had no application to Giovanni Maria Mastai-Ferretti.

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I’m 82 but soldier on. My congregation are mostly retired people. We don’t want any young people singing kumbaya at their folk masses.

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@ 1136, you need to go off and enjoy yourself for what few remaining years you have left, rather than hanging about trying to be relevant and useful. Nobody is going to thank you for it. The edifice is crumbling. Your efforts are not going to stop that. So, go off, put your feet up, enjoy some retirement, do some nice things, and bask in life for a bit. Please !

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I used to be sympathetic towards trades, but I am no more.

I think dioceses should provide Latin NO masses and, as the Pope wishes, very restricted access to the Old Rite.

Alas, it has become a rallying point for fascists, narcissists and misfits.

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@9:4am

You’re right it has been a disaster, so much for their New Springtime for The Church a New Pentecost it has been the opposite. I agree with Paul VI “The smoke of Satan has entered The Church” how right he was, and it has got worse since then.

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That old gay Dominican, Austin Flannery, deliberately mistranslated actuosa to active, to create the expression “active participation”. Even if we accepted that this is what the Council wanted, the participation, active or otherwise, has collapsed. In Ireland, Mass attendance rates have plunged. If people aren’t going to Mass they are not participating. All the statistics confirm it. It is why churches close, there are fewer Masses and parishes merge.

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Yes.

It’s basically killed Catholicism in northern Europe, which is an irony since its most radical backers were Dutch and German bishops. So bad is it in the Netherlands that most parishes will be closed or merged (two thirds), and Wim Card. Eijk just transferred a church to the SSPX know it facing no future with diocesan authorities.

V2 is a failure, an utter disaster.

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1.39
At least you are nailing your colours to the mast.

Your view is diametrically opposed to that of Pope Francis who teaches that the Secound Council of the Vatican is the magisterium of the church.

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Whatever the success, or otherwise of Vatican II, the answer is not traditionalism. It does not bring greater discipline, holiness or charity among clergy or laity. It represents, too often, a bizarre authoritarianism and Messiah complex which is ripe to abuse. Only such morons could think, ‘Save the Liturgy, Save the World’.

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I think people have the right to be protected from dangerous groups. Let people have their own freakish church or religion if they want, but keep those headcases away from me.

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7.11: Ivor, you sound very rooted in your own extremism. Such people are nasty, intolerable and very judgmental. You need to learn tolerance and respect.

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I don’t know why you’re all saying Vatican 2 has been a disaster when it still hasn’t been fully implemented. The proof it hasn’t is the continued existence in the church of you tragedy queens with your mantillas.

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4.33pm What parts have not been implemented (with reference to the council documents which, of course, you haven’t read)?

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Change some words and see what it sounds like:

I used to be sympathetic towards gays, but I am no more.

I think dioceses should provide straight masses and, as the Pope wishes, very restricted access to gay Masses.

Alas, it has become a rallying point for fascists, narcissists and misfits.

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It’s rather strange to hear you saying you’re pleased with anything his humbleness does. The fact that you support it, is very telling how wrong it is. Despite you and your likes trying for over 50 years to deprive us of this wonderful truly Catholic liturgy it will NEVER happen NEVER,NEVER,NEVER!

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Bella, calm down for the love of God. Calm down!
Your blood pressure must be going through the roof.

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@ 11:16am

Thanks for your concern Johnny you’re too kind but I’m quiet calm just irritated by all polyesters who I’ll deal with as always hope your not one them.

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No bother, Bella. I’m glad to hear you’re calm.
The Lord likes people to show kindness and concern.

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Unlike the New Mass, where external and active participation seems required on the part of the laity, in the Latin Mass the altar servers represent the congregation and respond to the priest on the congregation’s behalf. As a result, the congregation does not respond vocally to the priest in the Latin Mass. The Church has always encouraged actual participation which is different than active participation. The focus should be on one’s interior disposition, interiorly participating,assenting, and responding to the worship of the Mass.

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The Traditional English Mass gave us the best of both worlds, the opportunity to do either / both, which is why go ahead types not much older than me were distressed by its banning. We could see what was going on (and the English followed the usual meaning), but we didn’t get hectored.

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The Traditionalist Extraordinary Form Latin Mass Brigade only have themselves to blame for these recent announcements. They were offered an olive branch by Benedict, and enough rope to hang themselves, in the interests of embracing them and including them in the Church. However, they used that in order to distance themselves further and almost to set up a state within a state, and to engender division. So, it is no surprise that people like Francis and Roche come along and slap them down. The Traditionalists had their chance, they blew it, because they are stupid and arrogant. Now they will have to tow the line, and if they don’t like it they will have to go off and do their own thing. Not that we will miss them that much. As for the use of Latin in the liturgy, I have no problem with that as long as it is used in the liturgies envisaged by Vatican 2. No more Extraordinary Form nonsense. And, what is about young fresh faced seminarians who have been born long after Vatican 2 and were brought up in a Vatican 2 Church suddenly taking to the EF in their early days in seminary ? What a complete affectation. How come seminary leaders allow this to happen ? Perhaps no more from this point on, I hope.

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I recognise what you say about the young priests and seminarians these days. I see it all the time. An inordinate and unhealthy sense of themselves, obsessive about liturgical vestments, accoutrements and rubrics, mixing in a gay-ish, queeny milieu, and generally living an invented and imagined clerical life and culture. These guys are allowed to get away with this from the first day they set foot in seminary. Why ? Should not rectors and staff of seminaries be training these guys for the Church of the modern world, not for some long lost, imagined, faux Church of the Victorian age ?

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The Church of the modern world is old ladies going to Mass in fewer and fewer number, no men, noone under 60, seminaries and convents closed, octogenarian PPs, the young lapsed (and now usually unconfirmed or baptised). That’s the wreckage the young priests are inheriting.

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@ 10:27am
You ask how did seminary leader allow this to happen? if you read this blog you should be asking why did they allow all the appalling other things to happen. The Traditional Liturgy should be the least of your worries when you hear the apostacy and heresy that was allowed to go on for years.

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I think the things you talk about and the EF / Tradionalist / biretta and lace wearing seminarians are all part of the same thing; namely, not training guys to be normal, sane and balanced in all areas of their lives. The whole system of seminary seems to be not fit for purpose anymore, in fact has drifted off in to some alternative odd culture. I sit in my church and watch the young curate, who has been mentioned before on this blog many times, and wonder, ‘what planet are you on ?’

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11.50am. If you are sitting in judge and judging your curate so harshly you need to pray for kindness and a change of heart. I bet you haven’t been to confession for a very long time.

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Thank you for the valuable information re Pope Benedict though I didn’t believe Vat II “envisaged” particular liturgies – which doesn’t at all invalidate the rest of your points. Both the present “pros” and “antis” have made belief solely a matter (besides politics) of “mass” liturgy (and I even followed it nicely in my book in early childhood), when only the Office is important and clergy tell laity we aren’t allowed to use that. Among those indifferent to liturgies is a contingent for whom belief is far more important.

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He is 85 his race is nearly run, the shades of those murdered by the junta wait for him in the shadows. Church attendances in the west are in free fall and his best effort it to ban a form of worship?

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@12:24pm
Yes he’ll be called to account for his support of the junta and a lot more. Do you think that’s why he has never visited Argentina to avoid being confronted by ‘The Mothers of the Disappeared’?

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11.50

With respect to what you are saying, the planet he is on is probably every bit as habitable as the one you are on….

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There are thousands of priests who were inspired to become priests by JPII ans B16, the generation of priests who are inspired by Francis are totally different. This can be seen in the exponential growth of SSPX, ICKSP, IBP, FSSP etc. Silverstream now has 22 monks which is incredible and new monks joining this year. Pope Francis has done more for the traditional movement than all 4 previous Popes combined could never do. He inspired a spiritual revolution and the revolt is winning.

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With the likes of Taylor Marshall et al., rallying behind the Latin Mass and attacking Francis at every possible opportunity, justifying their hardened hearts and hateful comments with outlandish conspiracy theories and prejudiced statements, I believe Francis’ hand was forced and he has proven that he will do what’s right for the sake of the church he leads.

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Latin Mass is a ruse for gay clergy to masquerade with all the sartorial trimmings. It has nothing to do with God or the Gospel it is an anachronism and reflects this attitude: obedience to the Pope as long as he’s our pope and we approve of him.
Stripped down to its core the Latin Mass Brigade is no more than Rebellious Queens strutting their stuff and camping it up.

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This is getting tiresome having to do the list. The blog’s stars are NO only and gay as can be: Dom Richard, Ledwith, McCarrick, McCamley, Roaree, the Maynooth summer of love crowd, the beach wanker, Cardinals Cupich, Tobin, CMOC, Coco etc, etc, etc.

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11:22 It would help if you had a go at reading the comment you’re replying to. As it is your ? answer is unrelated.

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Funny how the appearances of Silverstream, Fr David Jones and previous appearance of Dame Cuthbert Brogan (who started off trendy and actually switched to being trad because she thought it would attract young men to the monastery) here are selectively ignored.
There will always be more NO priests to go off the rails because the 1962 is a fringe interest of a few tat queens.

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And the ex-PP of Pomeroy. One of the worst abusers in Clogher diocese, Fr Jack McCabe, taught RE in St Michael’s College, Enniskillen. He was a total lib and he hated the TLM.

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Thank you for reinforcing the fact there are fewer Latin queens because it’s such a minority interest. 😜

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‘a vocal minority group’
Who also refuse to see that that’s what they are. Such presumption.
They’re the Downing Street drinks party of liturgical approaches.

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11.02

System singularly successful with you. “ over you” ? ? I am not a fish but surely I can talk about the species.

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11:02
Bishop Pats ministry includes pastoral care to those abandoned, wounded and
abused sheep of Holy Mother Church, including those neglected by many clerics
and bishops.

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The disagreement that the TLM generates is indeed interesting. The problems being experienced by the Catholic Church is not as a result of Vatican II or the absence of the Traditional Latin Mass. The problems being experienced are due to economic progression which leads to a more liberal society, alongside gross incompetence of the RCC in Ireland, The cover up of child sex abuse and deviant behaviour by clerics, the financial corruption within parishes, the abuse of power by Priests for decades, the refusal of the RCC to accept homosexuality is not a psychological deviancy etc etc etc. Keep disagreeing about the TLM, see where this eventually leads to…..

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What are YOU doing about it? Don’t be like Dermo and DLF, where you simply enumerate problems but offer no solutions. Is your parish better, healthier, stronger since you arrived?

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If the Church is as awful as you say it is, “Dublin priest”, why do you stay? Does your integrity matter less than the free house?

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Bella’s age range is mid to late sixties, enjoys a flutter on the gee-gees while hankering for the glory days of Irish catholicism. Sounds single but stranger things have happened.
Not alone, probably on the tippy tappy calling in reinforcements. Post are too well written and coherent for our Bella.

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Can you imagine the outrage from Bela if you brought home a shirt with polyester by mistake? Likely single but, like you say, not certainly because natural fibre fanatics seek each other out.
Bela, please relieve our curiosity – are you living in sin?

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12:43

Bella seems a wee bit preoccupied with fabrics particularly of the poly kind.
Maybe its a girlie thingy. When it comes to sin-God knows the score.

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12.13
A shrewd analysis – especially your point that well-written posts are foreign bodies to Bela. She’s been vaccinated against them.

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7:55
Bella, doesn’t seem to realise central to the Gospel is charity, love of God
and love of neighbour. I don’t recall mention of Trent, TLM or lace frills and mantillas.

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The funniest thing about today’s blog subject is that very few of those opining about it go to Mass of any kind. 🤣

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Oull Gossip Alert @ 12:55pm

Nettie not any more preoccupied than you are about cheap nasty netting. I think it’s a girlie thing with you when it comes to your sins God certainly knows, it just there is so many of them.

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1:53
What are talking about? You are rambling again, Bella.
You are rambling talking about nothing that makes sense.

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11:35 am — Don’t forget, there has been great disruption to the status quo over the past year or so. And I’m sure we can all agree: for some it hasn’t been easy to accept the unfolding reality… getting back to a healthier and more “normal” common good is something which many are working on as we speak.
We should all be very proud of our front line workers. They are doing a brilliant job around prevention and contagion — it has to be said!
Yes, those who find it difficult to understand others or their well-being may well well find it difficult to adjust; complacency is never a good thing — and sometimes it can even be bad to our general health.
Exercise is important, too, here. Nobody can stop you from exerciseing. . . it is simply a human right!
Moving forward: this new reality — not forgetting the post COVID one — we must be willing to embrace a healthier moving forward — this is key to the survival of our Christian churches and our communities. Is it not? I think it is.
No man or woman is an island until himself, or indeed, herself…
Yes, the virus began strong and it “operated” covertly; it was insidious in nature and it tried to take ahold and, without any regard whatsoever for innocent life. Strangely enough, though, this is contrasted with the love and compassion of our front line workers who were quick at working on counter measures. They worked tirelessly, night and day, and quickly produced a vaccine. The vaccine, no doubt, has done well and saved many people. But it didn’t stop there, oh no! That was just the start, wasn’t it? Yeah, it was, I know it was.
We must work together to prevent this kind of thing from even attempting to take ahold again.
How viruses work: we know how they work: but this was a bold attempt.
Vigilance and transparency: and taking necessary actions and precautions. . .
these are the qualities which will keep us all safe and free from further harm.
Trust me, I know what I’m talking about! x

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3.22: You end your long essay by saying, “..trust me; I know what I’m talking about..” Really? You ARE the only one who knows. This is a circuitous, long winded, confusing piece. Can you write it in three or four sentences? Please and make it cogent.

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Who listened to Rome during the Paul VI, JPII and Benedict XVI years? I assume you know what I mean when I talk about itchy ears doctrine?

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11.44 am anon

I doubt the two priest/ monks in Glastonbury will ever accept that, they really love the Latin Mass. That was the beginning of them saying Ta Ta, we’re off.

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3.48 pm anon

No no, they are still there until the end of the year. They must be sick and tired of parishioners asking them where they are going.

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The rites aren’t the source, only (for some) an occasion of division (I’m told a scholastic would know, but apparently “how fantastic no scholastics”). Montini delayed council till after the teachings of Rahner and Teilhard took root (before he got the top seat), then abolished the good English Mass facing the people that we had in some places (dividing for deniability); and JP II overloaded sacramental “charge”. As for “communion” with a regime, it has as much value as that the regime itself practises (spiritually). Laity were always allowed to sit out, as often as we wanted (affording cover for politicians). Enveigling prospective clergy under pretences that change every few years, when they have to spend a major personal part of their years pronouncing masses, needs better consideration. There have been three English masses AND three in Latin co-existing within most of our lifetimes (when one English one sufficed in “bad” days). Ignoring superstition, objectively significant differences between the English ones haven’t been honestly evaluated by claimed top authority.

The more popes meddled (i.e divided, on behalf of their nominal subordinates), the less their spiritual position worked. Cdl Ratzinger apparently didn’t clarify this well. Prayer, belief and relating got forgotten a very long time ago now. I think, like Bp Pat probably, that most of the prominent complainers are more suspect in belief and relating than most of us ordinary ones who keep our heads down. It’s the superficial bossiness (not thinking we need convincing according to any trustworthy belief) that alarms. No Vatican City regime ever gave anyone belief: Jesus and Holy Spirit did, as any nun or priest would assure us in the “bad” days: this meant that popes weren’t even figureheads. Jesus was on our side and we communed with each other through Him and Holy Spirit, not through some head of state we (including good catholics) guffawed about.

The subject today is rite but relating, belief and prayer are what needs the attention. It’s time to drop organisational sacraments altogether (let alone the politicking) in a big church. Council didn’t reform the bad relating in Ireland (Bp Pat does though) or among Hispanics. I think this plan will quieten things down from some of the suspect ones on one “side”, but will we see the issues better? That will take brain work by each of us, just like we were told religion was supposed to be, in the “bad” days when we hadn’t yet heard of Sodano or Bertone. Nothing prevents (or prevented) believing clergy teaching better than the Vatican City requires (-ed), whatever the flaws in ceremonial rubric or performance. Would any “traddie” please dispute these points.

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‘In this context it is helpful to read the four volumes of the Congressus Generalis de Statibus Perfectionis (First General Congress of the States of Perfection), which was held in1950.​ This Congress considering Religious Life describes many of the issues which are by convention associated with the years following the Second Vatican Council.​ By way of a few examples it describes the intrusion of the world into the cloister and into the cell, the refusal by religious to account for the expenditure of money, and a personalist account of obedience in which the superior has to earn the respect of the monk or nun before obedience to instructions follows.​I suggest that the General Congress of 1950 makes it clear that religious life in the Catholic Church was already in ferment in the 1940s: in this respect my own community was simply part of a more widespread picture.’

Abbot Cuthbert Madden

Source: https://bishoppatbuckley.blog/2020/11/

Vatican 2 was called because of the rampant abuses and chaos, you fools. It wasn’t the cause of them.

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Bergoglio is doing in quick time within his own organisation what it has taken more than three hundred years to do in The Anglican Communion. Whether that is to be lauded or regretted is certainly a question for anyone with affiliation.

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Thank you… and the radiance of a Harry Clarke window to you also. I hope that decerning Bottle Shop sends you libation for your well matured palate.

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Most sincere congratulations to Archbishop (soon to be Cardinal) Roche, from the Church in England and Wales. We, Your Excellency, are hugely proud of your achievements, not least in this important regulation of the liturgy. One of our finest.

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Oul Gssip Alert @ 1:07pm.
One of The Worst
May the oul cockroach get his just deserts and be crushed as soon as possible, one of the worst appointments made by Bergo. I’m sure we will hear more about this dreadful moron when they start to delve into his personnel life, much more to come their.

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1.40
So, Bela Lugosi is a lady from Sligo who attends Harrington St TLM. She is compromised by having left school too early and by calling the HF Francis the A…..christ.

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@1.40pm I am sorry you did not agree with my post, which, I assure you, is far more accurate than one syllable of your poorly written contribution. Your last word, for example would be be spelt ‘there’ not ‘their’. An error that negates all you have forced upon us. Archbishop Roche is a fine, congenial man.

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I am a youngish man, in my thirties, and the Latin Mass lads we have in the seminary in tbe North West of England are living in a dream world. They love to dress up in 4″ old Roman collars and prance around wearing cassocks and laced surplices. What they need is to be sent to the Sisters in Seel Street for 6 months (and a month-or-so each term) and if they still want to be priests, then OK.
I also believe they need to be sent on parish placements in “active” parishioners, parishes where they will learn genuine ministry and pastoral skills — inner city parishes.
When they finish their training and they get sent off to wherever, they may well be on for a culture shock.
And it’s not fair on the parishioners, don’t forget; we need real priests who aren’t afraid to roll up their sleeves and get “stuck in” lol 🙄
Seriously though, we don’t need spoiled little Hitlers — we need priests who are on the level. +Malcolm is letting what I would describe as kids, in their twenties, waltz around thinking they’re the queen of Sheba all dolled up.
It’s a false economy within in a bigger picture, and it’s not really doing the Church any good in the long run.
I prefer things a bit old fashioned but things have to be real and practical or we just become a bit of a show.

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*What* seminary in the north west of England?
Unless you think Birmingham is in the north west of England, in which case you are certainly not from either Birmingham or the north west of England LOL.

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Birmingham – you mean Oscott / Gaycott. The lads go in there and end up living a queeny girls’ life of gayness, or / and dressing up in lace and brocade and birettas. Sexual frisson throughout, both inside and outside the seminary walls. Throw in alcohol (and probably some of the softer drugs), and life is a breeze there. Then they come out and get the shock of their lives, and many don’t last for too long. Over half are gone by 5 years. Others go on to waltz around as professional dressing up traditionalist clerics, adding a bit of colour to life, but otherwise corralling themselves in a make believe clerical culture where the amount of lace you wear, or where your attire / gear comes from, counts. Or end up in prison. Jolly per esempio. And a few others. Or just disappear AWOL, MIA, C/O. Remember, we pay for all this. + Nursey Longley needs to take a long, hard look. Just saying…..

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Oul Gossip Alert @ 3:32pm

Poor oul Nettie rabbiting on with her usual gibberish we can tell she never past the inter never mind the leaving. In fact dear Magna of happy memory was forever asking her ‘Is English your first language?’ And you can see why.

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@ 5:56pm

I certainly disagree with your erroneous and poorly written post. We will see what a fine congenial man the oul cockroach is when more about his character is revealed. As for correcting me stop being such a pedantic oul bitch.

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This is something of Roche, the swishy figure skaker. Francis is dying and he’ll be out soon. Zanchetta and Peña Parra won’t have Francis to protect them from charges.
The New Order is simply an utter failure. It has been a weapon of mass destruction for vocations and Mass attendance. I mentioned already that Belgian Mass attendance is so low, at c. 5% ten years ago that the Hierarchy there stopped releasing figures. Catholicism is essentially dead also in Germany and the Netherlands, in fact, in almost all of northern Europe which had a Catholic population of size. Ireland is catching up fast. Places once utterly Catholic like Brazil has seen Catholicism become a minority observance. Brazilians rich and poor have no desire for priestly socialism. The poor took the bread but went to the Pentecostal pastors.
The New Order saw every proper text rewritten, a doubtfully valid Jewish inspired offertory, and a heavily edited and disconnected three year lectionary replacing something older than a millennium and a half.
Most bishops ignored TC or just issued something boiler plate. They see how the Mass of Ages lives in the head of Francis and his advisors in spite of the tiny percentage who follow it. Essentially it is coarse bullying, and it is good that it is mostly going nowhere. Perhaps Reinhard Card. Marx of Cologne, who mocked TC on its release could cut off his funding for the Vatican. A Coccopalmiero party will be far duller without electricity.

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1.34
If you cannot get simple facts right your conclusions will be suspect.
1. Marx is Archbishop of München not Köln.
2. There’s no such reality as the so-called ‘Mass of ages.’
3. Decline in organised religion in Europe had begun well in advance of Vatican II.

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1. So what? He still mocked TC and pays Frank’s leccy bill.
2. Compared to something made up 50 years ago, yes there is. 1500 plus v. 50 years.
3. Not remotely true for Ireland, and almost equally untrue for the rest of the world. Episcopal Protestantism had been weakening before the 1960s. The growth in Catholics halted in the US in 1963 with a haemorrhaging of vocations commencing in 1970s. It has largely tracked episcopal Protestantism since. Men just discarded their priesthood or vowed religious vocation, without even going through the procedures as what had attracted them was now gone.

I see and hear the crying babies and young people at the Mass of Ages and contrast with the mostly elderly and tired, with a few of the JP2 generation at the New Order.

The Novus Ordo Missae is dying and in many places it is almost stone dead.

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8.31
Paper never refuses ink. You can repeat a fallacy a million times and it doesn’t make it true. Anachronistic unscientific ahistorical phrases such as this one is remain so no matter how frequently they are repeated. Read Josef A. Jungmann’s classic Mass of the Roman Rite to familiarise yourself with a mental map of the developments in the rite ab initio.

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Fr Angry stepped in for our Pp today who is isolating and we long for him back already. How this man is a servant of god shocked us parishioners today. Drives up in a Maserati, presents with no uniform but a mustard Next jumper, matching shoes, skin tight trousers and a satchel. It was clear he didn’t want to be there, but the feeling was very much mutual and we will not be back until Fr Lovely is well.

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But how did he present as angry? You people are nasty gossips, your comment hardly screams Christian like vibes

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It might even have been the Fr Angry who is always ranting on here about how compassionate and emotionally competent he is. 😆

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Every time I see something about the masses I attended and served at in the 1940s and 50s I get more and more confused.
I have a Roman Missal which was blessed by our Parish Priest and presented to me after my First Communion in 1947. There is a an Introduction and Liturgical Notes by Abbot Cabrol O.S.B. and the Imprimatur of William T. Cotter Bishop of Portsmouth. I have only just noticed that the date of printing is not there; but it must have been before 1947 when the Missal was presented to me.
I have attended 2 Latin Mass Society events during the last 10 years. The first one was memorable for the number of Laity telling us “Don’t respond this a silent Mass”. I remember the other for the similarly trivial reason of the clergy wondering what a sub- deacon should do with his beretta.
My Missal which has had a lot of use over the years was no help whatsoever in following either of these the “silent mass” or “Mass of Ages”, but I was immediately struck by the “Mass of Ages” which seems to be a marketing coinage similar to “Ploughman’s Lunch”.
I am sure that there is a simple reason.as to why my Missal, which I had used at mass in France in my youth, was unhelpful at these events and would be pleased if someone could explain this for me.

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I know what you mean. I used to go to a traddie mass and the priest (a drunk who didn’t bother with the Divine Office) would often not celebrate the actual mass of the day or, even when he did, he would use readings not prescribed. My favourite moment was, after a hard day at the bottle, he left the Epistle untranslated, which inveighed against drunkenness!

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Ask for grace this Christmas, “Ivor Payne” so that the layers of cruelty encasing your heart may be peeled off.

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I second that, it attracts a unique bunch of gays, the ones that recognise they are gay but are scared to ‘come out’ or feel inadequate or have a strange notion of sexual intercourse in their mind that they won’t live up to expectations

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@ 1:55pm
Well thank’s be to God it doesn’t attract the other more numerous crowd, you know who I mean their into guitars cheap cotton denim and golf jumpers too many of them for my liking.

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1.55: The phrase “it is suggested..” is pure hearsay and gossip. Are you capable of more intelligent commentary?

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Say what you will about Latin, but Latin breviaries and missals do attract buyers. Just last night a set of Latin Benedictine breviaries from the 19th century went for over four hundred $macker$ on eBay.
OCarm breviaries do very well and were a superb source of income for the great Sacerdote of blessed memory.
$arum Mi$$al$ and Breviarie$ still command good prices.
The current Liturgia Horarum and Missale Romanum do bring in good money, but I can’t give away the “translation” of the same. Perhaps if they render them into English…
The Latin BCP by Bright and Medd brings serious money. I mention this because the first Latin version of the BCP was for the use of Irish clergy who were known for their facility in Latin as well as for their nescience of English. No one seems to know to what extent it was used in Ireland although I know that Latin was used on the Isle of Man.
So instead of ranting about the Trentish rites you VatIICultists should be raiding your sacristies for all kinds of Latin delight$.

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I own a set of Liturgia Horarum (the original Latin V2 breviary). What was interesting was just how little used it had been. Yet it’s a very beautiful office – simple, lucid but full of depth and tradition. It’s a world away, though, from traddie Psalm droning. I’ve never met a trad priest or nun who can talk with knowledge about the Psalms, or, for example, the Fathers. All their Latin is poorly pronounced, rushed and hardly understood. They’re a danger to the tradition, not its guardians.

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Ivor Payne,
You might check out the Solesmes catalogue which includes Latin/French volumes containing the readings omitted in the LH due to space.

BTW, Percy Dearmer was discussing the loss of belief way back, I think, in 1926. We can’t blame everything on Vatican II although it’s quite convenient so to do. Take a look at Percy’s “The Church At Prayer” for eye opening discussions.

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10.31
Ignorant comment. The ecumenical context is an essential sine qua non of liturgical theology.

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Ubi episcopus ibi ecclesia.
That’s what Catholicism is about, not tat. Being gathered round the bishop and thinking and believing with the mind of the church. The disobedient should be excommunicated.
Having failed in the charitable endeavour of attempting to reconcile the SSPX the church has obviously recognized the only way ahead is to cut off the selectively faithful.

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The sedevacantist website traditio [sic] is now fulminating that the FSSP is going to be suppressed in February.
Can’t wait.

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I have attended the Novus Ordo all my adult life – about 50 years – and have witnessed the whittling away of Catholic doctrine. Weddings and funerals are now unspeakable occasions of indulgence and self-promotion. After the last funeral consisting of trite nonsense, I was embarrassed to be a Catholic, and shall be joining the Latin Mass Society. Should the ludicrous Cockroach try to put the mockers on that, there is, thank God, always the SSPX.

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Seriously, though, what is the Church going to do when the old ladies, who comprise the NO congregations, go to the judgement we all must face? Does Frank not care that there is no one coming after them? I know the last of the convents will be gone in the next 10 years but will all the churches be sold off too? I suppose some will regard that as progress.
In the typically dated language of the time, the Church in the last 50 years has sought to renew itself to appeal to and share the gospel with “modern man”. Since the Council, modern man (and woman) has looked at what’s on offer and turned away.

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If the current pope can so utterly contradict previous popes, who are we to believe? In a pope fight, who wins? And if they can all cancel each other out, what good are any of them?

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It might seem that frankie the dictator Pope might be in a hurry to speed things up in his own way, such as this new edict coming from Bugnini supporters such as Roche and St Gallen mafia. Given his recent surgery, rumours have gone into overdrive. That might have prompted Frankie to do something quick and fast.
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OR frankie the dictator wants to cause a schism whatever it means to you. He had said himself that he might cause the schism in rcc at earliest stage of his papacy.
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Whatever which wind is blowing as he’s sailing on it for now to take it effect.
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Agree that TLM is divisive especially in America. Think its aimed at Burke and all the die hard Traddies out there such as well known youtube one. Although I could be wrong there. But TLM isn’t hugely divisive in Europe just the way I see it. But in America, its hugely and mightly divisive there as it takes money away from the parishes that the Vatican needs.
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Vatican is a very very organisation with a charity status to boot. But the Vatican is a state which cannot be treated as a charity status at the same time. You can’t have both ways. It’s quite clear that vatican relies on money especially millions coming from a weathly nation rather than strong Catholic country such as Poland or Africa or philliphines. The mention of Mc Carrick and law of Boston, springs to our mind cos of their massive donations. Also the Vatican couldn’t close down the legionnaires of christ cos they needed their millions and millions of money, which was quite simple and plainly for all of us to see their real intentions.
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Just think of Silverstream Priory for instance, would you close it down while the money coming in is quite hot, just a hypothetical question here. I think not.
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Maybe it’s all about control, more likely scenario., IMHO.

Or alternatively, frankie the dictator is quite openly stirring it up a hornet nest that is of TLM in USA and hope for the best that hell would break loose and he could bring in a lot more restrictions.

But what he’s playing at and FOR WHAT?

For me, I find nothing wrong with TLM or NO.

The more I see it re laces and polyester bandied about it as its gay priests talk about fashion but its all about themselves but not of god. But I see some old priest and decent ones as well, who does TLM quite well with minimum of movement. Whereas in high mass, there was a lot of movement, no silence etc, plenty of distraction. The first time that I saw a TLM high mass was Burke who was wearing cappa Magna in Cork. It went on for some two hours and over. But I was done with it after that.
*
I find low mass best with minimal movement as it aids us re silence and focus.
*
On the other hand, NO mass is like a protestanied version of it as all focus is on the priest but not on God (which is the opposite of TLM).
*
My gripe with TLM was that it goes on too long re high mass but lot less in low mass. Sometimes I lose track of it but with help of images in Latin – English missal that I could follow with ease.

NO mass is handy especially 30 mins quickie mass where I could get out quick and on to the street.

Patience isn’t my virtue cos especially I have no patience with high mass in Latin which goes on and on. How did it take re jesus last supper, just saying 🤷‍♂️.

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Good points, DG. The NO in my parish takes an hour and twenty minutes. There are three homilies (during the introductory rites, in the proper place, and at the end when the priest does a recap sermon). Then there are the 5,6 or 7 hymns, with no verses missed out. Together with the readings it is a torrent of words from start to finish. No silence, no pauses. It’s like being at a lecture. No wonder children and teenagers hate it with a passion and will do anything to get out of it. As soon as they can decide for themselves they opt out, never to return except for weddings, funerals and rites of passage for their own children in due course.

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Anon at 7.15pm
Good comment. I’m surprised that it had taken long re 1 hour and 20 mins re NO Mass. Maximum time that I can tolerate in any mass in any form whether it be NO or TLM is from 45mins to an hour plus 5, give or take. That is because I can’t hear anything during NO or TLM mass as everything goes over my head. Hence my impatience.
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I’m not the only one as many deaf people experienced it at first hand, the same as myself. So nothing new to me when I heard a deaf person saying or complaining re long duration and time taken to finish it. They were itching to get out as fast just like I was in mother Burke TLM high mass with all its glory and finery clothes/vestments of cappa Magna, which doesn’t wash with me.
*
It would be a completely different story if I wasn’t deaf perhaps I might find it more meaningful or quite simply a chore etc re mass.
*
What I find was/is missing in any mass (not all mass though) was the silence and focus. I remember visiting the house of loreto in Italy on holiday years ago as I found myself in prayer with silence and peace. I could feel the spiritual air there.

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I noticed most of the abusers priests, bishops or cardinals came from NO mass such as MC Carrick, cardinal whose name escapes me re cocaine orgy parties, Ivan Payne, Bishop casey, fortune and Grennan of Ferns diocese, some Vincentian priests who ran deaf chaplaincy team, zachetta, Bishop BLING, nuns of daughters of the cross of liege, nuns who called out Bishop mukkal re abuses but got their marching orders as list goes on.
However in TLM, I know one abuser priest before NO was Brendan Smyth. He was reported to someone higher up in Germany in 1965. Mc Carrick who was ordained in TLM, also was Maciel of legionnaires of christ as well in 1941. So the rot in rcc must have started slowly some time before the v2. But it has accelerated much faster in post V2 and gaining apace now.
Like I said before, I find nothing wrong with TLM and NO. Both have pros and cons,quite simply.

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The problem is not liturgy, or V2, but clerical discipline. For some reason, the wheels came off long ago. Few if any bishops have been able to get their priests to live a prayerful, balanced and useful life. Sat alone in the presbytery, overworked, yet watched, the bottle or pornography beckon. Clergy houses, or at least small flats with a shared routine and led/supervised by an experienced priest, would help.

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Deaf Guy, the connection between NO and abuse is totally false. There are very clear records of prolific abuse well before Vatican 2 and Pope John XXIII recognized it was a problem before the council.
The publicity has occurred post Vatican 2 and that has led some people with an agenda to make this false connection: of cause there will be others who confuse correlation with causation.
Like the lady whose husband came back from a conference with Chlamydia and she thought it was because he had been wearing a mask 😷
He had been wearing a mask but obviously got Chlamydia another way. 😂

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The point is that abuse is a post-Vatican II problem. It exploded after the council. Vincent Twomey has written sensibly about that fact, and even the Murphy Report makes the point that abuse was out of control in Dublin in the 1970s because of the collapse of canon law and refusal to use its sanctions, coupled with a belief among bishops that the compassionate and pastoral thing to do was to send abuser priests off for treatment and then give them a fresh start in a new parish.

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10:43
You’re still not proving that the council has caused it. You continue to confuse (alleged) correlation with causation.
PROVE IT.

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7.42: What a perversion of reality. Some priests fall prey to drink and other unhealthy behaviours, emotionally, mentally, morally and spiritually. You cannot make such ignorant, wide sweeping statements like this. The majority of priests I know over 40 years have a reasonably derp faith/prayer dimension to their lives. Yes, being human, we struggle with our humanity at times. We are not perfect – and I somehow imagine, Ivor, that you’re not perfect either! Your notion of supervision is archaic. We’re not imbeciles.

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derp
(slang) Draws attention to an act of foolishness or stupidity. quotations ▼
I put chips in my soup instead of crackers. Derp.
(slang) A placeholder for unimportant details, blah blah blah. quotations
Spot on, I’d say.

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LOL the troll is active today. He just makes whatever point contradicts any sensible comment and impersonates Bella but you can tell him by the queeny tone.
As always he’s shot himself in the foot though 😜

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10.25
Bela’s ‘methodology’ of answering comments:
1. Regurgitate the words in a post in a different word order;
2. Add 5 more words of between 1-5 letters each.
3. Add 5 more words of between 6-10 words each.
4. Take away the number of words you first thought of.
5. Pepper the lot with one or two of the following: ‘antich…t.’ ‘b…x.’ preferably thrown in the direction of Pope Francis.
6. Shout like hell. (Argument weak.)

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11:06
Excellent observations on the strategy adopted by Bella when answering comments.
However, the ‘Bella methodology’ is a freakish accident in the blogosphere requiring
further investigative analysis.

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Birth rates in poor countries but they turned Protestant in Latin America and will turn Protestant and Muslim in Africa and Asia. Meanwhile the historic heartlands are dead.

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8:56 Considering the majority of that time was before Vatican 2 you’ve just made the point that old mass and new mass are equally ineffective and the stats are the result of other things.
Thank you.

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No, had we retained the heartlands and Latin America we’d add those to the birthrate growth in developing countries. The global population has soared since 1910 but the Catholic proportion of the global population has shrunk.

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There’s definitely something bizarre about the Catholic Church embarking on “synodality” – a venture full of starry eyed 20th century Christian democracy – whilst simultaneously suppressing an entire liturgy in a process that feels like it belongs in the Counter-reformation.
I think this has always been a paradox of Vatican II – a “modernisation” process so rapid and thorough was only imaginable because of the Baroque monarchic authority of the Pope.

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Vatican II has had the idea of synodality implicit in its texts. It might not seem a bad idea, for in the years after V2 (V1 started that trend) the Church has become utterly centralised. Bishops have lost any discretion of vowed religious life, which many here welcome. Yet sending decisions once taken by a bishop, his canons, vicar general and other officers to a desk in Rome, just means the decision is not made or poorly made. Roche saw TC as restoring liturgical responsibilities to bishops, but only if they take the decisions that Rome approves, of restricting TLM. Synodality is sadly an empty political term, a bit like all these parliaments and congresses seen in Communist states which nominally had great autonomy, but were expected to tow the Party line.

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Given Francis stand on the TLM, why did the bishop of bling (Noel Treanor) allow these right wingers to purchase the old Presbyterian church around the corner from his mansion where the Latin mass is celebrated several times a week. When I asked one of the attendees, they stated that they were going back to the ‘old ways’ and didn’t care what Francis says. Has Treanor no cojones to confront these celebrants or is his palm being greased

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@9:04pm
Good for Bishop Treanor what a great grace it is for the people of Belfast to have the new Church of The Immaculate Heart of Mary. As she promised in the end My Immaculate Heart shall Triumph.

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Another lovely turn out of comments for the poison dwarf lace queens, Pat. You must be very pleased 😄

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“Pope Francis has approved further clarifications regarding restrictions on the traditional Latin Mass…”
Day 20 of the Advent reading of the 24 chapters of the Gospel of Luke.
20:02 “Tell us by what authority you are doing these things,” they said. “Who gave you this authority?”

20:04 John’s baptism – was it from heaven, or of human origin?”

20:08 Jesus said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.”


20:25 He said to them, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
Pax.

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Seamus, the Protestants and Orthodox are right: many/most RCs treat the pope as if he’s the Fourth Person.

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Benedict, at the Mass in 2005 when he took possession of St John Lateran had this to say:
“This power of [papal] teaching frightens many people in and outside the Church. They wonder whether freedom of conscience is threatened or whether it is a presumption opposed to freedom of thought. It is not like this. The power that Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors is, in an absolute sense, a mandate to serve. The power of teaching in the Church involves a commitment to the service of obedience to the faith. The Pope is not an absolute monarch whose thoughts and desires are law. On the contrary: the Pope’s ministry is a guarantee of obedience to Christ and to his Word. He must not proclaim his own ideas, but rather constantly bind himself and the Church to obedience to God’s Word, in the face of every attempt to adapt it or water it down, and every form of opportunism.”

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Yes, thinking on religion and “leaders” has always been confused.
Story told: Co Antrim Presbyterian farmer apologised to his pastor after marrying a Catholic lady: “but don’t worry reverend, I’ll still be marching for King Billy on the Twelfth. “

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Please don’t tell me that the people who don’t go to Mass are still arguing about Mass. It’s farcical.

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Please don’t tell me you are the Fourth Person knowing who attends and does not attend Mass. It’s delusional.

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