Informed Sources Report that the new Apostolic Nuncio to the Court of St James is raising eyebrows at Ambroseden Avenue with his penchant for the traditional liturgy and allowing himself to be dressed up “like the infant of Prague”!
Archbishop Claudio Gugerotti recently celebrated his twentieth anniversary of episcopal ordination on the Feast of the Epiphany. Whereas previous Nuncio’s have always had their muted celebrations at Westminster Cathedral, the Italian prelate opted to have smells and bells and copes and canopies at Corpus Christi church in the heart of London’s West End. The Archbishop was conspicuous by his absence!
Looking at the get up on the completely over the top sanctuary (anything that can be smothered in gold leaf has been) one wonders if Vatican II has taken place, let alone Pope Francis’s and Roche’s crackdown on the “Old Rite”.
Parish Priest Canon Alun Robinson (ex Anglican in cope on the left) has previous form having made the tiny parish a mecca for ultra right wing Francis hating clerics and laity. No surprise to find Cardinals Burke, Sarah and Arinze frequent visitors and how Alun loves to dress them personally. The young men who flock to the shrine are quite distinctive.
Which begs the question what the big man up too? Informed sources claim that he is angling to succeed fellow Anglican convert Alun Hopes (no relation) as Bishop of East Anglia, hence the salivating around the Nuncio and Curial Cardinal Has Beens.
Such manoeuvrings have not gone unnoticed at Ambroseden Avenue and Elsie is well aware of what the rotund canon is up to. He is going to be a disappointed man.
PAT SAYS
Pope Francis and Archbishop Roche have made it clear that the Latin Mass and its trappings have to be restricted and should not take place in parish churches.
The picture at the top of the blog is like something out of medieval times – with all the gold trappings, lace, copes and coverings.
It is not a scene envisaged by Vatican II.
And why is the nuncio using a crosier?
He is not in his own diocese and has no jurisdiction in Westminster?
It’s quite obvious that these lace bishops and priests see their priesthood in almost Old Testament terms – superior creatures.
Their ceremonies are really suitable for West End theatrical reenactments of “Old God’s Time.
These spectacles are not about service.
Bishops and priests are servants of the people or they are nothing.
If they want to dress in medieval gear then let them go into acting if they have the talent.
Most of them do not have real talent and might have to settle for parish or community amateur dramatics.
And most of those clerics involved in these dramatics are older quuens with younger admirers.
In the meantime Francis needs to sack some nuncios and bishops who are not acting according to Vatican instructions.
A few well thought out sackings would bring the purple actresses into line.
BISHOP PAT BUCKLEY 
302 replies on “UK NUNCIO GIVES POPE FRANCIS THE TWO FINGERS WITH HIS CELEBRATION.”
These scenes are vile Pat, I resent them so much.
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Try the Presbyterians.
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11:38 I too think you should try the Presbyterians – because they are Christians and not about dressing themselves up.
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Lol, some US Presbyterians wear chasubles now.
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@ 11:38pm
I’m so glad your upset not before time, by the way I love those pictures so much.☺☺☺
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11.38pm What do you think of the Orthodox and High Anglicans? Do they trigger you too?
Have you considered that you might be a bit highly strung, if this annoys you so much?
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Tell them to pay their tax. And rates.
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Pope Frank needs to forget his balls and grow a set of tits, and sack these idiots.
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Frank does not give a hoot about grass roots Catholicism, he’s well protected in the Vatican and well looked after
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By the Mafia of course
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How poignant you do a piece on flamboyancy Mass as HRH McBrearty arrives home from his second home.
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He would suit the Latin mass wouldn’t he, all the dressing up and dressing down
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Do you half-wits not realise that this is Paul’s New Mass?
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11:19 No it isn’t – it is the new Mass with bits of the old (which is forbidden) and a perfect illustration of the disobedience and mix and match approach which have brought the so called trads where they are now.
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What bits are forbidden? Please be precise, with reference to any documents that support your claim.
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All the rites not mentioned in the new mass are forbidden. Having a pretend subdeacon alone shows this isn’t the new mass. Code of Canon Law 1983 para 1009.
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2.28
No documentary evidence required. Abrogation of earlier forms of rites is a given. E.g. even though there are serious and many problems, at least 10,000, with the Missal of 2011, the earlier editions are not permitted.
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2:28 Where to start with this pantomime.
Pretend subdeacon for a start. The order was abolished and the 1983 Code (paragraph 2009) says the only orders are bishops priests and deacons.
Did I mention that this may supposedly be a new rite mass but it’s clearly having a go at being something else?
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No proper response to the challenge. They are two deacons. Where’s the sub-deacon?
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This would not suit Stephen as he’s a plain British citizen and this would be too much hard work for him. Wonder who is in his will…….
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Silly old queen.
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Paddy McCafferty also give Francis the two fingers up and said he will not be stopping the celebration of the Latin mass, do you think he should be reprimanded by Treanor?
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@11:4pm
No, he should be promoted to Monsignor God Bless him.☺☺☺
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Does he know Latin?
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I love the Latin mass if this were rolled out more people would probably attend mass
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Fr Feeney, take note and learn
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11:48. Can you explain why?
If it’s the pomp and ceremony wouldn’t you be better off going to the opera? At least the music and singing might be better.
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@12:14 am
It’s not the pomp and ceremony you moron, that was The Mass all over the world untill 1969. You could go to Church anywhere in the world and the Mass was the same.Now you can go from one parish to an other and the polyesters just like the prods make it up as they go along!
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1.27
Bela, you wouldn’t know, if someone hadn’t told you that the mass was the same. You struggle with the vernacular.
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A.1.27: It’s instructive to read retorts like yours. In response to a straightforward question you immediately denigrate through pejorative name calling.
Is this an example of Christianity in action?
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5:22
Of course it isn’t, and neither is the drag act pictured. By their fruits you shall know them, as you know.
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@ 5:22 pm
Christianity in action is not taken seriously.The litany of abuse reports bear witness to it.
Dressing up in colorful vestments is taken very seriously; the ‘be all and end all’ of being catholic.’
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Where can I attend it in Belfast?
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Multiple places. Google it.
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@ 2:37am
At The Immaculate Heart of Mary 577Antrim Road Fortwilliam Belfast
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And the SSPX.
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@ 2:50pm
Wrong you moron, I was their and heard Mass in many places at home and abroad in Lourdes.Rome and Fatima the Mass was the same in them all. I have no trouble with the vernacular at all there is plenty I would love to say to you in the vernacular but I wont out of consideration for dear Patsy.
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5.44
You wouldn’t have known, Bela, that the preces were unique to each Mass.
You were their? Whose were you? Or is that just another of your hopeless malapropisms?
You have used the word ‘moron’ a couple of times here today. I’m surprised Pat has allowed that.
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Agreed
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Moron @ 8:31pm
I love how you love me, you’re too kind, what big words you are using have you been on the gargle again you know it makes you nasty. I’m surprised Patsy has allowed you to be so nasty to me. bye Polly maybe you need to go into rehab again!!!🙄😏😏🤣
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11:48 Only outside of pantomime dame season, when the theatres have these kind of dames.
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No, wait.
‘If this was rolled out more people would attend’
Yet it’s available in multiple places in Belfast.
I’m not seeing the crowds.
It has been rolled out and the fantasy of crowds going to mass hasn’t happened, yet you persist in thinking that if there was more of something which is freely available more people would attend?
Logic not your strong point is it.
I think the reasons for the near extinction of the church in Ireland are to be found outside of what happens in church.
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Pat have you ever celebrated Latin mass?
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No.
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Why doesn’t that surprise me?! Dissenters and those unable or unwilling to be obedient always prefer the mundane.
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But are the TLM folk not being disobedient to the Vicar of Christ? Just asking.
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The Mass of the Saints and Martyrs, codified by St Pius V can never be banned and was never abrogated. Just saying.
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Fantasy obedience at 12:36. Your comment says the entire church up to now agrees with you and you only. Actually the saints and martyrs would have told you to obey the pope and shut up.
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Any reason Pat?
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12:58 Which Pope? There are two, Benny OK’d TLM and Frank banned it. They are both infallible.
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Anonymous @3.41pm: You over-egg papal infallibility; it doesn’t apply here.
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3.41
I believe you’ll find Pope Francis succeeded Pope Benedict as Bishop of Rome and not the other way around. Therefore, an openand shut case.
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Father drag queen loves the Latin mass and I think that speaks volumes
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Does the latin mass take longer?
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Yes
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No, it does not. You don’t have the four hymn sandwich, or three homilies and boring bidding prayers, and the distibution of Holy Communion is quicker.
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Fabulous Patsy I told you so, nobody’s going to listen to oul Fanny or his henchman oul cockroach. You should stop being such an oul polyester and get some more lace and brocade on. Instead of those horrible polyester zipped albs. Make that Orartory of yours more Catholic looking you might get more people. Call over to The Immaculate Heart of Mary in Belfast I’ve heard great things about it packed out the people are looking for Catholic worship. Good for that Papal Nuncio oul Nettie will be distraught the poor Nuncio will be inandated with her unwanted epistles but they’ll come in handy in the jacks! So stop being a spoilsport remember the polyesters hate you even though you’re into the same proddy garbage as them.
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11:53, the traditionalists are usually defenders of papal authority. Are the traditionalists now sedevacantists?
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No Shammy boy, the pretend traditionalists claim to be defenders of papal authority but obey only themselves and are crypto sedevacantist. The Holy Father has made them show their true colours with TC.
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That’s not how the papacy works. Read Vat I, Vatican II and what Benedict said at his installation. Ultramonatanism and papalotry are a curse and the people who invoke it now do so because they agree with Francis, but didn’t think that way under JPII and Benedict.
Sorry to break the news to you, but we’ve had bad popes. Unthinking obedience and treating the current holder of the office as an oracle or a president who changes “policies” is deeply unCatholic.
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3.58
Unthinking obedience to JPII and Benedict? Was that you?
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There simply is not enough clergy now to perform latin mass, defo not on the island of Ireland anyhow.
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@ 2:10pm
The Unholy Father has showed himself in his true colours with TC he is an anti-pope.
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3.48
If that’s your view Bela, (Your poor punctuation gave you away.) you are a sedevacantist. As such, you are a heretic.
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Tyrone is on the verge of a massive scandal. Clogher will fill these blogs for weeks on end soon
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W&L scandal and a half will break in the near future with significant implications on several fronts. Watch this space…
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You have to laugh when people on hear claiming there is going to be a big scandal here and there and then say nothing more. Timewasters, windbags, spoofers and wind up merchants is the only conclusion to make.
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11:09. Last years box office scandal makers broke plenty of wind.😂
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Granny Grammar @ 9:06pm
The Queen of Academia is back the pedantic oul bitch, but you’ll notice she only correct but who cares she is an Apostate!
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Latin mass is when catholic clergy get their own version of Halloween
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I shudder to think what the trick or treat would be.
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Pope Benedict is not to last the month according to sources in the Vatican he is extremely unwell.
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Anon at 12.03am
Is that why Frankie and his henchman Roach are speeding things up fast, related to TLM all and sundry 🤷♂️🤷♂️?
***
Re TLM, let me tell you my experience as I have nothing against TLM. Back then I dabbled in reiki, TM plus some new age therapy as I was seeking healing from abuses et al.
****
Little did I know that I was already in evil sphere in terms of spiritual world. It opened a doorway to evil world aka demon world. Strange things happened as I didnt understand.
****
Then fast forward a decade later, I stumbled into the Internet re dangers of reiki or TM or any new age therapies such as séances, dowsing et al. I wasn’t able to extricate myself from that new age trap at that time.
**
So I went to one TLM mass by chance as I felt some spiritual struggle inside. I didn’t realise that evil spirit has entered inside me until I experienced some quite entering in one church, but not other churches. You may ask why, ok.
Abuses opened up a gap in my spiritual shield or bubble at very young age if you like which enabled demon spirits to enter it far quicker than a normal person with no history of abuse.
So I attended TLM a lot few years ago as the effects of demonic spirits were reduced as time went on. I did go to NO mass but it was slower to remove the effects. Whereas TLM had much stronger effect as it removed the demonic spirits in a shorter time frame than NO mass.
***
The reason I had to go to TLM mass much few years ago, was that i couldn’t find any exorcist, some of them were nameless or hidden out of sight. Any help would be appreciated re this and thank you.
**
I had forgotten one sin which was almost totally forgotten for ages this in turn allowed a demonic spirit to remain in me. Then I confessed it, much to my surprise I didnt feel any unease entering the church afterwards.
***
I have one criticism re frankie is that he’s oppressing TLM hugely for no real reason cos TLM has value or effectiveness in eliminating the demonic spirits in shorter time frame but it takes months to get rid of it.
My 2nd criticism of RCC, abuses opened up a wound inside (from abuses) our spirit bubble or shield at very young age, which enabled the demonic spirit to enter much quicker than a normal person with no history of abuses, who did dabble in reiki or tm or any new age therapies.
My take :
TLM is very good at tackling demonic spirits as it give us a value or a meaning of it.
***
Cons re TLM was that some bishops or cardinals use TLM high mass for their power trips down the aisle feeling superior to other people. That’s frankly unacceptable in my view cos no equality of power, just a very lopsided situation of power equality resided in Bishop or cardinal more than any ordinary laity person. They might feel haughty and superior to the laity but its quite acceptable. That’s how it arose when I stumbled into one church where mother Burke was presiding the high TLM mass.
****
I did experience healings in some of NO mass but I didn’t feel it in TLM,.why was that? NO mass have a value there namely it heals people but not all people though.
****
Both rites of tlm and no mass both have value or meaning. So I’m sitting on a fence so to speak re this.
Both mass has some faults but why is frankie the jesuit, off the cuff speaker attacking TLM mass which has a spiritual value 🤷♂️🤷♂️
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Bring back the dogs Pat; a much more interesting topic than this lot
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Yes all the talk of the dogs yesterday was lovely and so refreshing xx
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Where on earth do they keep these costumes? Look at them all they all look like something from RuPauls drag race
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The contestants on RuPauls drag race are more talented.
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Alexander Sherbrooke staying conspicuously out of the camera shot. He’s the one to be weary of. Not the good Fr Robinson.
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Ow Patsy – its all dolled up but its the new rite mass to be sure. Elsie would never give permission for bishops to say old rite on his doorstep – too much anger between him an cockroache. itll be worse when cockroache is stuck in a red hat soon. has there ever been three english cardinals at once before?
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This report is unclear as to whether they were celebrating in the Extraordinary Form / Tridentine Mass or whether it was the New Rite – in Latin. Using Latin isn’t the issue really. He could equally have celebrated Mass in Serbo-Croat ! What makes the difference is whether it’s Old or New Rite. Some clarification is needed. Even with the New Rite said in Latin there is lots of scope for dressing up have having fey young men in abundance on the altar. I do particularly like the two fey young things wrapping their copes around themselves and perching their bottoms on the sanctuary steps ! I’m surprised their Mummies and Daddies have allowed them to spend time with that old fat salivating lot of priests in this day and age when we know so much about the predilections of the clerical ranks .I hope they had all the safeguarding paperwork in order. Perhaps somebody should ask. I think you are right in noticing the significance of the absence of Nichols and probably the various auxiliaries in Westminster and other bishop, as well as the unusual location. This will not have been missed at Ambrosden Avenue. Remember, for Elsie, revenge is a dish best served cold.!
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12.28
You should have gone to sleep earlier. The infant class will be starting early today.
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She’s ancient, but she’s sooo Anglican.
Reminds me of Fr. Sampson from St John’s, Tuebrook.
There was a time when he had a saw knee and couldn’t walk properly for a few weeks, one of the parishioners said to him:, Oh, Fr. Sampson, you won’t be able to genuflect at Mass on Sunday.”
He loudly replied, and with gust and great penache—whilst nodding his head left to right: “Nonsense, nonsense; I shall find another suitible gesture, daaaarrrling. But thank you for your consideration in such divine things as of heaven on earth.”
Absolutely barmy and eccentric 🤣
.
https://youtu.be/zRNSUMiDmZg
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Pat, I see mention of Tyrone in the Diocese of Clogher. To me and my uneducated mind, Clogher was always the Craggy Island of dioceses. Surely Tyrone has more to give . . . 😂
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@1.13am Yes, it’s your uneducated mind dear along with your booze bottle.
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1.13am too many 🥃🥃🥃🥃🥃
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@1.13am No guesses as to who you emulate on craggy island at that time of the morning.
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11:59 Ah, I’m right so, Dougal.
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I draw the blog communities attention to a real issue;
The Diocese of Arundel and Brighton already in serious difficulties over it diocesan priest Fr. Charles Jeffries and Caldey Island now has to face up to yet another allegation of rape and sex abuse of a child involving Fr. Anthony White the parish priest of Battle East Sussex. Link supplied
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-56928940
With Dermot Fogarty Dermot Keveany Michael Hill Bishop Kieran Conry Cardinal Murphy Oconnor and Paul Clarke OFM(Conv.) amongst others we need to ask who knew and for how long concerning these people and why little if anything was done.
Links to Clarke
https://uk-database.net/2016/01/07/paul-clarke-urmstonrye/
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/catholic-priest-avoids-jail-over-10850214
Does the community have any information regarding this diocese its priests and what exactly is unfolding here.
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https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/victim-told-devastating-impact-alleged-765244
Exceedingly close interrelations since before 1965 and ongoing, A&B-archdioceses of Westminster & Southwark-St Mary’s Wonersh-abbeys in those areas. All personnel whatseoever, during any period, including all not to blame, plus all who have been in senior authority, will have exceedingly interesting reminiscences and observations, including small snippets, plus diaries and records left behind by any deceased, and which must now be pooled by journalists / small secular charities / subpoenaed in view of the likely major impact on concentrations of public figures and potential conflicts of interest. Remember IICSA has merely been cherry picking to showcase impeccably mournful star performers.
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To be frank this is very much business as usual and the way clergy were shuffled round to cause maximum damage is well established. It usually takes abuse several decades to get to this point and so priests continue to get arrested.
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Beats the hell out of polyester anyday!!
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Brian you can leave me off whenever it suits you ok. Look forward to it all x
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For Alun Hopes will never be appointed a bishop. He’s far too old.
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That’s the new rite luv – no maniples!
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But….Father Littletwit of Southwark (where these days ?) has a swishing maniple when he celebrates Mass in the New Rite. What’s that little affectation about ?
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Why would anyone want to glorify God when they could simply offer Him the mundane? Why should we create places of worship worthy of the King of Kings who sits in glory, when we can have ugly, bare, austere monstrosities?
Those who think that ugly vestments and ugly churches are a sign of pride, are actually lacking in humility themselves. They make it all about them. Drawing attention to themselves as individuals by magnifying their own false humility. God is centre stage in beautiful churches and beautiful liturgies. Man is centre when he goes out of his way to show how humble he is.
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Petrus @ 8.42am – excellent comment.
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How can they justify the thousand of pounds spent so a few men can ponse about while those they are called to serve have to decide on heating or food, wondering where the money is coming from the keep the debt collector from the door. The focus is not on God but on them, serving those most in need glorify God so much more than building up a delightful wardrobe.
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9:37
Hear, Hear!
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@ 9:37pm
The poor you will always have with you, the words of Our Lord to the moaners when the woman anointed his head with expensive oil you will not always have me.
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Here’s an alternative perspective by a young Irishman. I can relate so much to what he says:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/rxrrbr/musings_of_a_rad_trad_beware_its_long/?s=09
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8.57
Obviously, not a very competent Latin scholar, with a basic mistake in the simplest of Latin in the last line.
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Yes that’s a perfect illustration of what they’re about.
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It’s Novus Ordo.
https://www.facebook.com/corpuschristimaidenlane/videos/1153845148481611/
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It’s the future, Pat. The ACP priests and their pensioner parishoners are the past.
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9.14
The future? Really? Lol.
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Yes, when the old ladies go to their reward nobody will replace them. A small, purer, orthodox church will survive in the post-Vatican II ruins.
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10.23 The article linked to above sets out how Fr Trendy and his handful of parishoners are now as old as tea and the only Mass the young go to is the TLM. It’s purely a matter of time.
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11:28 Not Catholic theology of the Church.
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“These spectacles are not about service.”
Agreed but is Pope Francis cancelling culture? I ask an open question. It is understandable that the Pope is seeking unity in the Church, just as he is trying to build a bridge of unity with the LGBT community.
If TLM is not affecting the main church services being held in the vernacular (as Gaeilge or English) and the New Rite, some people might argue that they should be able to meet in prayer in the TLM form, just as other prayer groups come together over the course of a normal week.
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10.32
Seamus, you’ve shown poor judgment here recently in relation to MMM when you opined he was looking for trouble by responding to a sermon which he rightly resisted.
You didn’t include the fact that the incident was pivotal in his deciding to leave Christianity and faith in God behind.
The same poor judgment is on display here.
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11:05, MMM was looking for trouble and it was exactly what he got. MMM needs to be sent homeward, tae think again.
Pope Francis was speaking out about cancel culture recently. Those involved in this TLM movement might claim he is cancelling a part of their culture.
There are more important matters however that are more about service. There are parishes that those in the TLM movement could be sent to for a more grounded Christian experience.
Pax.
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11.05am Yesterday’s news mate. It’s now today (Wednesday).
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Seamus. Was Christ “looking for trouble” when he confronted the money changers and merchants in the Temple?
Was he entitled to do so?
This event is referred to in all four Gospels, and appears to have some significance.
Historically, it regularly seem necessary to confront issues to effect beneficial change. Did Christ not reportedly say, “I have come not to bring peace, but a sword…….” Matthew 10.34
MMM
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12:57
Great comment, MMM. Well said.
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MMM 12:57, you have written wisely today.
Pax vobiscum.
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2.22
Seamus, when you are addressing someone in the singular, the correct phrase is ‘Pax tecum.’
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@ 12:57 pm
The clerical fraternity (the brethren) is an exclusive club with its own laws, rules and regulations, which overrides the Gospel. Shame on the lot of them, whether wearing lace, polyester or any other religious garb going with the job. Thank you, MMM.
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2:59,
https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/editorials/ct-cardinal-george-latin-pax-edit-1120-20141119-story.html
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5.34
Seamus, it’s called pride and an unwillingness to accept correction. No one would accept the suggestion that you were employing the royal plural to your interlocutor. Stick to the lingua franca.
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Mass is Irish is divisive to those members of the parish who don’t speak it or understand it, including migrants.
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11:29, it is great that many parishes are providing a service as Gaeilge. Long may it continue. Gaelscoileanna agus Gaelcoláistí are providing great education across the country. People must be able to attend services as Gaeilge where possible.
Pax.
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And including Seamus, 11:29.
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11.54
That’s Gaelcholáistí actually.
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3:01, typewriter malfunction. It is of course Gaelcholáistí. The aonad model is a weak alternative to providing more Gaelcholáistí. Hopefully Gaeloideachas will have success in their campaign for reforming the process of establishing new schools.
Pax.
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What about the people in church who don’t understand Irish?
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7:25, that would be a parochial matter.
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https://eng.belta.by/images/storage/news/with_archive/2021/000022_1618471834_139084_big.jpg
This is the same nuncio who was in situ when the good-looking Fr Aleh Butkevich was appointed bishop of Vitebsk, Belarus at 41 and who was the ordaining prelate.
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So good to see a real Bishop for a change
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https://cache.sharesome.com/file/sharesome/uploads/user-images/u936899/z5nncn-jgeebfdttg-o.jpg
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Ah you’ve found the original version.
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https://cache.sharesome.com/file/sharesome/uploads/user-images/u936899/z5nncn-xtrlnv1zbl.mp4
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11.53. Never mind who is in his Will – 2 more relevant questions are:
1. Where did he source what is in his Will? “Vow of Poverty”, my eye!! 👀??
2. When “Will” clergy stop forcing “their Will” in all manner of areas that should be none of their business & that suits only their own personal greedy interests & twisted agenda?? In some parishes, even non-attendance & near empty pews fail to “send the message”.
Sad that the Church attracts some dysfunctional control freaks who add to damaging its reputation by making life miserable for their colleagues who are sincere in their office & for parishioners.
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What’s worse is the Church promotes some dysfunctional incompetent control
freaks who compound damage its reputation.
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‘ Poverty, my arse’
‘ If its anything like chastity say farewell to obedience.’
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1.08 pm @ Jim
That’s good, very good. Well said.
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‘I never had a doll as a child. I preferred to dress myself up’. Dame Hilda Bracket.
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“one wonders if Vatican II has taken place”
Since these photos all relate to a Mass offered in the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite then it is quite clear that V2 has taken place. This celebration was probably closer to the prescriptions of Sacrosanctum Concilium than any other Mass offered recently.
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Tis all about control Pat, Frank is losing control and he knows it.
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Sean Jones served the Latin Mass regularly in Rome, befoe his pastoral placement incident and quick escape from the Civil Authorities onto a Ryanair Flight.
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It’s astonishing despite the safeguards placed internally within Ireland, Hugh Connolly never bothered to Check with the national gendarmerie whether Sean Jones raised any concerns. Or even more similar request a reference from the Pallottines.
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1.00
Is English your mother tongue?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gZwqTaLB4Y
Pan Am (“Come Fly With Me”)
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Pray tell us more?
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it’s strange, Sean Jones has never entered the Territory of Italy since his exile?
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The hymn sung at the end of this drag act:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zreTvtpTeoU
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There is nothing wrong with the Nuncio using a crozier as long as in processing he carries i with the “hook’ turned backwards.
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You don’t say, Know All.
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Source?
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Know ALL
Archbishop Jude Okolo has made it very clear Papal Nuncio’s do NOT have a crozier as they do not have a diocese or a territory that are Papal Diplomats and message carriers.
Gugerotti has sunk to a new level lower that Charlie Brown he is a pantomime dame and hopefully removed sooner than latter.
Gugerotti did this in Motherwell during COP26 and totally wrong a drama queen.
The late Bishop John Cunninghame did not want buried from his own Cathedral so he went to St. Mirin’s Paisley and Bill Nolan did not sit on the Cathedra but brought his own crozier and Keenan sat on his Cathedra in choir dress.
Gugerotti is suppose to be coming to the years mind Mass tomorrow night so it will be interesting if he brings his crozier or how he dresses however Monsignor Hugh Bradley is principal concelebrant.
It would suit Gugerotti better if he did his job and get Archbishops and Bishops in place.
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Oul Gossip Alert @ 7:30pm
Good for Gugerotti you’ll get nowhere with him Nettie. He’ll probably need to lend his crozier to Hattie Jaques or she’ll never get up the stairs. Don’t you realize the reason they can’t get an Archbishop or Bishop is there is nobody suitable, it will have to be an outsider.
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Jim S.
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@ 9:03
Definitely.
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7.30
Jim S. replied to by Bela Lugosi. They are peers in their command of English. Jim S. is prefersble to Bela who uses foul language frequently. He is a sedevacantist masquerading as a Roman Catholic.
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One thing I’m opposed to is dressing up such as laces, fancy garments for any Latin High mass, cos it sounded to me that they feel more superior and haughty to laity church goers. That is quite frankly unacceptable especially in TLM high mass.
****
Just wear normal priestly dress for any TLM high mass as they do in any NO mass, I would argue for TLM high mass to be abolished if it persists , just leaving low mass TLM intact.
****
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Deaf Guy at 1:36 what you say would make perfect sense to any sensible person but these queens aren’t interested in mass of any sort, they’re interested in dressing up.
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@ 2:00 pm
Are you for real? did you read DG ramble @ !:14pm does not sound like a sensible person, not to me. He was in to all that new age crap reilki and seances and dowling
now he seems to have found religion. Personally I think he should be commited to St Brendan’s Grangegorman.
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2:23 ah, you prefer a different bunch of crap 😆
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Anon at 2pm
👍👍👍
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Anon 2:23, you’ve lost the plot completely.
We are all very fortunate to have DG’s contributions shared on the blog. Whether we agree or not is a different matter.
DG 1:36, there are humble parishes that these TLM sedevacantists can be assigned to. It will soften their coughs.
Pax.
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2:23 I did read what he wrote but unlike you had the compassion and wisdom to understand that traumatized people seek help where they can. Luckily nobody would seek help from you, your attitude would save them from you.
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2:35
Take no notice of ignorant comments, such as 2:23,DG.
‘Who loves ya baby’
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@ 2:23
A disgusting Rcc gaslighting comment, but typical, reflecting the Magdalene mentality.
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5.55 and 7.51
Exactly. Agreed. The culprit yet again is Bela Lugosi.
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2:44 Did Bela have any grip on the plot ? I wonder.
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DG@1:36pm
You might be happy with polyester a lot of us are not you really need help with with your obsession about vestments try going on The Far Sight Blog its full of Cardinals Bishops and clergy all of them wearing the Cappa Magna and sumptious vestments. You’ll probably have a fit. But I tell you again that was the norm. and nobody gave it a thought.
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2:05 Thank you so much for coming out and admitting this freak show is all about dressing up.
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2:05 Covering up child rape was the norm but nobody knew or believed it possible.
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Anon at 2.05pm
I refer to my post at 1.14pm
I understand that you support TLM as you label yourself as a ‘Traddie’ as such.
***
Thanks re name of another blog. But I don’t think I will have a fit seeing another cappa Magna cos I won’t see one. Thus I would avoid Burke’s visit to Ireland this year or next.
***
TLM high mass garments scream for attention, power trips, feeling haughty and superior et al. Need I say more cos its quite frankly unacceptable in my view, period.
****
I think I understand where I may have gotten the freak feeling re seeing ‘cappa Magna’ was when Archbishop mc quaid visited our school cos he founded it and started it. But it led to variety of serious, brutal and quite harsh abuses under his watch 🤷♂️.
***
I have no obessession with garments as you claimed it to be. Quite frankly, it’s bloody distasteful, Queen dressing up thus no concern for mass, do you agree with this comment 🤷♂️
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Anon at 2.23pm
Exorcist would understand this re my situation cos its different world re spirit world and the real world here plus I have had ptsd at that time when it was a full blown one without me knowing it.
**
Now it’s much reduced as it doesn’t affect me except for few things such as trigger points that I have to watch out for. Although I do have some or small bits of ptsd now.
If you were involved in demonic world such as dabbling that opens the doors to evil or demonic spirit world then you would understand my position that I was in at that time. Enough said.
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https://www.ncronline.org/news/accountability/sex-abuse-scandal-not-over-hierarchal-culture-still-needs-transformation
The sex abuse scandal is not over. The hierarchal culture still needs transformation.
Jan 12, 2022 by Tom Roberts
….”Where ordinary people would see the sexual abuse of children as a heinous crime, the culture sees these as sins and failings…” “The focus of society in such cases would be on the children, but for the clerical culture with no children, the focus is on the priest. Where an ordinary parent would imagine the damage that could be done if this were their own child, the culture has no capacity to even imagine how a parent would feel. Instead, the imagination is self-focused: what would it be like if I were accused?”..”…Accountability to civil authorities might be a given for ordinary citizens, but within the culture….accountability is never imagined as something we owe the people, or the civil authorities, instead we are exempt from that as though we live in some medieval kingdom. We owe accountability only to the bishop and to the Pope.”
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2.05
Is English your first language?
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Oul Gossip Alert @ 9:25pm
You’re becoming sedevacantist on the brain Nettie have ya been on google again because we know unless you google it you don’t know the meaning of anything.
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This was clearly a Novus Ordo Mass, and for the Solemnity of the Epiphany, which justifies a bit of extra tat. As far a I know from my own occasional visits, Alun Robinson says the NO without any frills or pomposity. However, Corpus Christi has always been a bit special – even back in the seventies Fr Henry Dodd used to celebrate the Old Mass without any campery. In recent years the church has been restored as a shrine of peace and beauty open to all as a break from the hectic commercialism which surrounds it. Cut the carping!
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I’m just thumbing through Gueranger and I’m not seeing where he says the feasts of the church are occasions to drag up in ‘extra tat’.
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Yes, I thought that service looked Nouus Ordo. Time to dust off the two volumes on the ceremonies of the modern Roman Rite.
Someone today mentioned that folks would be better off attending the opera than solemn high mass. This reminded me that Fr. Grieg Taber, quondam rector of the ritualist Church Of S. Mary The Virgin in NYC, died while attending “Tosca” at the Met sometime in the sixties. I have always been amused by the juxtaposition.
Since this is still Christmastide, at least for me, I can append this famous story. One Christmas Eve Father Taber as he was sitting in his confessional it is asserted that he heard the unique voice of Tallulah Bankhead address Jesus hanging on their large devotional Crucifix in these words, “ Smile, Darling! It’s your birthday. “
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DG@ 2:35pm
No I do not agree with a word you say and to be quite frank I find your remarks extremely distasteful about prelates who wear vestments of the Roman Rite just because you don’t like them. You were very fortunate to have seen His Grace Archbishop McQuaid, he always wore the Cappa Magna I saw him myself many times in The Pro. in the good oul days. So we will have to agree to differ.
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DG @ 2:43pm
I have no idea what your talking about since I never dabbled in any of these strange things like spirit world whatever that means. I would never be involved in any demonic world, it all sounds quite mad to me and your own fault for getting into it. enough said. Say your prayers and forget all that crap.
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@ 3:51pm article has a link to Dermot Martin.
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There are no subdeacons now and the fact these Brompton Oratory types pretend there are gives the lie to the pretence that this has anything to do with the mass of Vatican II.
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There were always two deacons in dalmatics at the Sunday NO in Maynooth. None of us thought that either of them was a sub-deacon.
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I am an ex-traddy who has come to love Pope Francis. Pope Francis is correct to describe Traddies as pelagian and gnostic, and this this description is consistent with my personal experiences with them. I am convinced that Trads will cause immense harm to the Catholic Church if they are not brought into line.
The folk in the picture will be right wing authoritarian whackjobs, and I guarantee that most of them will be Brexiteers and Tory voters.
And you right Pat, most of them in my experience lack musical, artistic, and linguistic talent, and are intellectually mediocre. And most of them are exceptionally boring and dull when they are not in drag. I suspect many of them are on the spectrum.
There is a word for what this is, LARPing, which stands for ‘live action role play’. They are socially inept geeks who cope with life through cosplay. It would be harmless except they are thoroughly unpleasant and elitist and treat people outside of their cliques like shit.
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Are you not another creature to have crawled out from under the vile banner of Catholic Truth Scotland ?
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LARPer proving Miles Immaculatae’s point bang on cue at 2:14. 😆
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I am a prodigal son who has returned to the fold of the Church. I got involved with CT following a mental breakdown in 2012. I was a vulnerable young man who had recently left a Catholic university residence following a hellish experience of sexual harassment bullying. This coincided with years of spiritual direction with a mentally damaged priest who encouraged me to repress my sexual orientation. If you look into the psychology of why people get involved with these weird groups, you will see there is a history of mental trauma, like Majid Nawaz, for former islamist who was radicalised after horrific experiences of racism.
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Why is Prince Michael of Kent on your ID ?
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It should now no longer be visible, I have tried to disable it on wordpress
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Miles Immaculatae at 2.23pm was it a Scottish university where all this happened to you?
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Outside of Britain they notoriously favour National Front and holocaust denial, and so on. Neo Nazis basically. The faith has enough trouble being associated with paedophilia without those whack jobs as well.
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In America they are now associated with Trump and the Republican party. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Republican and Trump movement goes full fascist in the middle of this decade.
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Miles immaculatae- at 2.23 – hope you have taken all of this serious information to the relevant safeguarding officer in the local (arch?)diocese – or at least to the national office – to prevent other vulnerable people being similarly traumatised. Least you could do to make up ……
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2:33 Thank you for once again underlining the complete ignorance by cathbots of safeguarding.
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Thank you so much 2:05, I hadn’t made the connection with LARPING but you’re right, it is exactly what this is.
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Although, you chose to leave your parish because you wanted to be in charge of the music and could bear any criticism!
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Lies at 1:27.
The mass has never been the same all over the world. The reality is the church has always had different rites.
Before 1969 you didn’t typically get this, you usually got Fr Johnny Walker racing through a low mass.
I would be more convinced by the so-called trads if they had any understanding of history, or even the Catholic faith, at all.
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I met a young traddy preist who believed that prior to Vatican II, Gregorian chant was common place in parochial churches, not just missa de angelis, but the whole lot of it. Imagine being this historically ignorant.
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Absolutely. The whole past they dream about is a fantasy.
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Ex-traddy, you need to work through your issues. Lashing out on Pat’s blog might not be helping you.
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Is this the same priest you wanted to train you in Gregorian chant?
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There have been past times when the church has been divided and there have even been rival popes. Even when a pope has subsequently been defined an antipope there has never been any question about what he decided with the papal authority. Even if he is a manifest heretic (and I’m not saying Francis is) the papal authority remains with him and he continues to exercise it. It is for Catholics to submit to it.
The point is that even if you personally prefer an older form of the Roman rite, the Catholic way is to submit to the pope.
Yes, even if history decides he was wrong.
Anyone tempting you to disobey Francis is drawing you away from the Catholic faith.
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You sound like a pope worshipper. No wonder the Orthodox want nothing to do with us.
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I have News for you. The orthodox aren’t Catholic. A lot has happened since 1053 when you last looked at the news.
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5.43
10.54 actually. Were you asleep during Donal Kerr’s lectures?
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Again we have the unedifying specatcle of the people on this blog who don’t go to Mass, opining about Mass.
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But 3:51, supposedly we would go if the Latin mass was available and even if we didn’t want to it would miraculously draw us back. Do get with the program.
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8.14
If you were awake during them, that is very worrying. He was positively an oral/audial Anaesthesiologist ( and he was at my ” ontological transformation” Lol). Baby Jesus….they called him….as cunning a fox as ever ran….He escaped the Marists to the fields of Kildare and then sat on their governing council !!!!
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8.43
But Donal Kerr catered for visual learners in a manner that was forward-looking and rare. He spent the first eight to ten minutes of every lecture having his students transcribe a multicoloured acetate page which summarised the lecture exquisitely.
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https://www.complicitclergy.com/news/
Aggregated news and commentary from across the web regarding cover-up of the sexual abuse scandal.
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By a right wing fake news agency.
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Considered fake because the hierarchy don’t control it.
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9.34
Concerning the things of Thoth: are you Tridentine in the matters of their delineation ?
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”These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.” Matt 15:8
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4.56: This scripture quote can be applied to many including the vast majority of supposed “christian” critics on this blog. Most of such critics are anti christs who couldn’t give a damn about the Church, priesthood, their parish community or the gospel of Christ. Grow up children.
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“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” Matt 18:6
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Shammy is very selective in his scripture quotes “likes”. 😝
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We can be sure that the LMB attract gay men and gay clergy like bees to honey.
The picture on this blog entry screams homosexuality alongside self-righteousness and authoritarianism.
They are a laughing stock: an object of ridicule and derision: not blushing for the gospel but rather for the anachronism they truly are.
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Like.
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Here we go again. The gay clerical stars of this blog hate the TLM, eg Rory, Fr McCamley (really hates it), Cardinals Cupich, CMOC, Coccopalmerio, Tobin, Daaneels, Hume, Mick Lomnasney RIP, the Maynooth summer of love crew, the ex-PP of Pomeroy, Uncle Ted McCarrick etc, eyc, etc. It is is in their direction you need to look.
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5:35 Sweetie, the ladies in the picture aren’t exactly butch. Apart from anything else there’s a Farnborough dame and we know all about them!
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Many individuals who remember Kitty Kirby from pre-Silverstream times note that he used to be an opponent until he figured out TLM would bring him a superiorship, young men, and buckets of cash.
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@ 5:35pm
You’re so right but the polyesters don’t like looking at their own, I wonder why.?
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Rare footage of the crowds attracted everywhere by the Latin mass. In this case a celebration in the UK in 1968. What have we lost?
https://youtu.be/b4RnrCD8DVk
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5:00pm. 😂. Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da.
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@ 5:54pm
Well you certainly know al about them sweetie which Dame are you?
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Is there a reason why homosexuals love to insinuate that everyone else is a repressed homosexual?
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Not just any homosexual. The phrase you’re looking for is internalized homophobia. Homosexuals who hate their own sexuality are hypervigilant for the slightest hint of homosexuality anywhere.
Those who don’t hate their own sexuality don’t do that.
There is also a convincing body of evidence that homophobic men are aroused when they see naked men.
All of this is not in the nature of homosexuality but is the result of internal and societal conflict resulting from thousands of years of spurning of homosexuality.
That said when you read it on here it’s just queeny clerics in denial spotting it in other queeny clerics in denial. Unlike real people, they can’t talk about their real sexual orientation because it’s naughty to be gay. Layers upon layers of denial, lies, pretending and then you end up with the picture at the top of the post.
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5.40
One of the more insightful comments I’ve ever read here.
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5.40pm
The use of a construct such as ” queeny clerics” is indicative of the phrase you point out that others are looking for; internalised homophobia . Your comment is turgid and convoluted ( of which I am expert according to the shark pool present here!) and reeks of internal/external confused fora. Kinsey has not been surpassed, though still not palatable to general society.
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Thank you 8:08.
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Pat what about our MIAs and their unusual laymen friends? I’m looking at NI here 😂 have u any news for us?
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Armagh?
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Pat what I love best on the days you do a post about how the tat queens love dressing up, is the way Bela starts on about polyester and proves your point. 🤣
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@5:41pm
Patsy what I love best is how the nasty polyester queens like this wan think it’s all right to slag people with taste. But people who dress down like the poly’s don’t realize that they are the real tat queens.
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See?
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Are you knowledgable about our MIAs Pat?
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It was Mass in Latin (Novus Ordo) not the Extraordinary Form.
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Back to porridge – I spotted Stephen McBrearty at McDonalds drive thru in Hollywood, still in holiday mode clearly
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My replies to the above which I am unable to reply to directly:
2.33pm
Yes I have taken it to safeguarding offices at diocesan and national level. They aren’t interested. The attitude of the Church is that if it is a police matter you should go to the police, if it’s not a police matter, then they aren’t interested. I had an appointment at the curial offices of my diocese, they were pleasant enough, the safeguarding advisor and vice-chancellor were present, but there was nothing they did to redress my complaint.
On one occassion the safeguarding advisor referred my complaints to the police. The diocese did nothing to actually investigate or redress my complaints. The first thing they did is refer it to the police. After they had referred it to the police, they nothing. The police came around to my flat but there is nothing the police can do. I was over 18 years old at the time. Sexual harrasment and bullying is not per se illegal. Conversion therpay is not per se illegal. I was over 18 and I chose to go there so it is not a criminal matter. Ofcourse, what was done to me was morally evil, but that doens’t make it a police matter. Not everything that is immoral is illegal. My complaints were an internal moral and disciplinary matter for the church, not a criminal matter for the state. Safeguarding policy has actually made the situation worse, because bishops now never act on complaints… They say “if it’s a safeguarding matter, tell the police, if it’s not a police matter, what do you want us to do about it?”. It’s not civil government or police’s job to discipline the clergy and enforce ecclesiastical law … that’s the Church’s responsibility!!!
The diocese have recorded everything I have ever said to them and they use it against me to discredit me. The Catholic Church makes me sick. I only go to Mass for God, but the Vatican can burn down for all care. I was treated like a troublemaker and a querulant. It was spiritually and mentally devastating and humiliating.
4.07pm
yes it was
5.02 pm
i know about safeguarding, i have done diocesan safeguarding training. What use is it for the laity to do safeguarding training if the bishops won’t do anything to clean up the filth in the church? Any morally and psychologically sane person knows that if a child is in danger you call the police. I didn’t need safeguarding training to learn this. If a complaint deosn’t involve a child or a criminal offence, then there is no chance the diocese will do anything. the diocese don’t give a toss about redressing complaints about ‘hurt feelings’
I sent a safeguarding complaint to a british religious order about a completely separate matter. I didn’t get a reply. Again, it didn’t concern a criminal matter, so they are not legally obliged to reply to me. According to the Catholic hierarchy, you can be a pervert, a bully, a narcissist etc. up to the point of breaking the law and they won’t do anything to stop it. At least, this is my experience.
Safeguarding policy has a major flaw. All a criminal records check does is prove a persona hasn’t been caught. The bureaucratisation of safeguarding will actually lead to bad people falling through the system because its essentially a box ticking exercise. Safeguarding policy is essential, but humans still need to involved in the process and use their gut instincts.
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The Catholic Church makes a lot of people sick. Many only go to Mass for God.
It was mentioned on this blog a few weeks ago that three Irish seminarians
committed suicide. Was there ever an investigation into any of these suicides?
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Poor sods
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Safeguarding MUST be completely independent of the RCC.
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Couldn’t agree more 👍
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Yes, and financial oversight as well. It should all be referred to an independent body. It should not be a dealt with in-house.
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9:25
And their families
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This comment is very relevant. Who are the safeguarders safeguarding?
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@ 9:56
The Hierarchy
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This is shocking and should be communicated to Sicluna in Rome. This has parallels with O’Brien – at a “lower” level
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Lol, as if they would give a toss. I have already reported to the people who need to know about it. I was humiliated the first time.
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Just looked closely at the picture. It’s not someone pretending to be a sub deacon. It’s two deacons. Which is allowed in the Ordinary Form!
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Nah. One doesn’t have a stole.
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They do both have stoles. You can see them.
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Bishop Pat
I am a straight man who attends Corpus Christi Maiden Lane. I don’t hate Pope Francis. I admire him in many ways. I was there for the Papal Nuncio’s beautiful prayer of celebration on January 6th, which was not an old rite liturgy. The church is a beautiful oasis in the middle of the West End. What’s your problem?.
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‘I am a straight man who attends Corpus Christi Maiden Lane.’
No such thing. It’s the actors’ church after all.
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6.54
Respectfully, you should have stopped with the first clause of your comment…..
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Hi William are you in regular contact with Michael Byrne
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I love high liturgy as well, but it’s elitist and attracts some bad people. How many Nigerians, Filipinos, Latin Americans were at the Mass? How many BME people? How many people were there who live in social housing, claim benefits, work minimum wage jobs were present at the Mass? How many homeless people? Not many I am guessing.
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Bad people who don’t allow you to run the show?
There are all of the people you mention at the parish I attend. You know that. The only snob is YOU! You think you should be in charge because you have a degree in Music.
A degree is in no way a guarantee of a good musician, as your performances on the organ demonstrate!
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Nothing shows more clearly just how big a political organisation the RCC is when we have all these rules and regs about different forms or rites of mass. What’s allowed or not allowed is all about control etc.
Whatever happened to the old biblical statement “ wherever two or three are gathered in my name there am I in their midst”?
There was no caveat about Latin, Gregorian chant, vernacular language.
Message to cathbots. Keep it simple.
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Dick @6:55pm
We’ve had simple for too long Dick we’re not Proddy’s we’re sick of it. We want Pontifical High Mass at the Throne, beautiful Gregorian Chant and all the rest of it. If they want simple let them run down to the gospel hall. That’s not for me.
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Welcome back DD.
I hope you’re comfortably sipping the occasional BB in that big chair of yours.
Oh aye, and maybe smiling at the parallel between what commentator @ 10:30 seeks, and what the Roman poet (Juvenal I think) referred to: giving them “bread and circuses.”
It’s still a strategy useful for those in power to keep the lower classes content, …and pacified.
MMM
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2:23 Are you a priest?
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7.00: ” Are you a priest ” inquisitors is back again exposing his plonky brain. Thick as 4 planks.
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Well, go on then, are you?
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They dress up in their finery
Of satin and of lace
Whilst all around them
The church is in disgrace
News of abusive priests
Pours forth day by day
Yet they continue with their finery
What would the Nazarene say
The bishops live in splendour
The sheep can barely eat
Yet the satin and lace brigade continue
Their attire so crisp and neat
They take their foreign holidays
Whilst the sheep are in despair
Drinking their expensive wines
And eating fancy fayre
The sheep continue to graze
Continue to worry and pray
But do those priests really care
What would the Nazarene say
As Jesus was led to the cross
And his mother gave him a hug
Oh how his heart must break
That the clerics take him for a mug
Was HIS death in vain
Was it all for satin and lace
Watch as they squirm
When they meet HIM face to face
Their religion is just a business
Built upon HIS name
As they dress up in their finery
And look like pantomime dames
But rest assured
They will have their day
When Jesus castigates them
HE’s the only way
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7.13pm
William McGonagall rides again.
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7:13 Well done. you’ve hit a nerve in the unholy ones!
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Lovely to look at
Lovely to hold
But if you break me
Consider me sold
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7.13 pm anon
Good that!
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7.13: All together now – Awwwwww.. awwwwww…how beautiful!! Did you write this for a satirical magazine or were you under the influence of some drink?…..I’d stay with the day job!
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7.13: The new poet laureate – OMG…1 out of 10.
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224 comments so far!
One of the worst indictments of the clergy is when you publish about a priest raping someone they just go ‘Meh, old news’. But when it’s about a cruise or tat they’re all over it like a rash.
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Yes – rape is a criminal offence – doing think a tat is 🤷🏾♂️
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It’s English gay laymen, seminary rejects or Anglicans probably, who are commenting today. I’ve never heard a straight Irish Catholic man talk about “tat”. It is such a queeny thing to say. No wonder those who say it indulge the typical gay fantasy of assuming/hoping/insinuating that every man is gay. That’s all about the need to fit in with and be accepted by straight men and to be like them, which starts at school and in the home. But I’m touching on painful issues for many of your readers, so I’ll leave it at that.
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Yes Anon @ 8.40, I’ve also noted a paucity of intelligent well informed constructive comments when fundamental religious matters are raised on this blog. Yet there’s a profusion of comment when, ……well as you say, the focus is on ‘a cruise or tat’: trivia really. Which, I suppose, attracts trivial comments.
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Paddy, do you mean like at 9.16?
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8.40: You can be quite certain that the majority of comments are from non clerics or a handful of repeat critics, some good, some inane. The blog attracts a lot of lacey types, lay and clerical when you print a photo of a bishop in colour vestments. You sadly, are all over it too…like a rash.
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+Pat actually highlighted in spite of himself a big flaw with TC. If the Mass of Ages cannot be in a parish church, then where can it be? The responsa manages to be even worse. It suggests that after Francis, TC and allied measures will be abandoned. It concerns such a small number that it seems a character of monomania, given the many present challenges. Has the gossip levels run so low? I doubt PF gives a fig for some traditional Mass. His health appears poor, maybe pray for him rather than worry about something wholly licit. I struggle to see how an ornamented sanctuary is against V2. Latin and chant were supposedly held in high esteem by Sacrosanctum Concilium, the constitution on the liturgy.
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9.24
The expression ‘the Mass of Ages’ is a misnomer. Read Jungmann. It would be correct to call the Mass of Pius V as ‘the Mass of Stages.’
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In his 1912 book on the Roman Mass, Adrian Fortescue wrote: “Essentially the Missal of Pius V is the Gregorian Sacramentary; that again is formed from the Gelasian book, which depends on the Leonine collection. We find the prayers of our Canon in the treatise de Sacramentis and allusions to it in the 4th century. So our Mass goes back, without essential change, to the age when it first developed out of the oldest liturgy of all. It is still redolent of that liturgy, of the days when Caesar ruled the world and thought he could stamp out the faith of Christ, when our fathers met together before dawn and sang a hymn to Christ as to a God. The final result of our inquiry is that, in spite of unsolved problems, in spite of later changes, there is not in Christendom another rite so venerable as ours.” In a footnote he added: “The prejudice that imagines that everything Eastern must be old is a mistake. Eastern rites have been modified later too; some of them quite late. No Eastern Rite now used is as archaic as the Roman Mass.”
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Jungmann’s work is over fifty years old. The Mass codified at Trent was identical with the first printing in 1477, and before that after St Gregory the Great, changes were few. How many revisions has the New Order of Mass had? The GIRM had to be heavily rewritten as it wasn’t really talking of a Catholic Mass. Calling the old Mass, the Mass of Ages is not a fitting jibe given the endless revisions of the Pauline liturgy.
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10.59
Are you claiming any of your unsubstantiated generalities has replaced Jungmann’s research?
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9.24
Pope Francis’ health is robust, Deo gratias.
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Mr Bergoglio has had dementia for years.
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Good health cannot be a certainty given his colon issues, but he lives and needs our prayers.
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Two fingers seems quite minimalist. His entire Diplomatic Corps. should give him ten fingers, ( thats a raised ten fingers as a multiple of a single raised digit)
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@ 9:36pm
Spot on again Bileen.
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After reading some demented comments (few from some ‘ex trad’ who does not sound a well man) it has to be repeated, emphasised that this is a Latin Novus Ordo, favoured by the Oratorians, Rosminians and commonly offered in Rome itself. Francis himself offered Latin Novus Ordos (well a consecration in Latin) at times. The Pope will get a laugh if anyone thinks this offends him. It is his preference for the traditional minded.
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He is not at all well.
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Does anyone ever notice how some priests suddenly disappear and go off the radar?
What happens to these – are they left the priesthood and off to new pastures?
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They are usually removed from the clerical state. Most disengage completely from the church and are embarrassed to disclose that they were once priests. If you go into the secular world as a former priest many will assume you‘re a nonce.
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@ 10:33.
For a time after I left 3rd Divinity seminary, I used avoid referring to my former position: not by consciously lying, just avoiding. Mind you that was easy outside of N. Ireland’s nosy preoccupation with religion and perceptions of tribal allegiances. I can now analyse my former reluctance as relating to my unwillingness to engage with individuals, a majority of whom could only see my ex seminarian role as some sort of failure.
Certainly for last 20+ years or so, and particularly since returning to N Ireland 10 years ago, when appropriate and/or when asked, I have been fairly matter of factly up front about it, with both RC & non RC contacts.
I invariably get a quite positive reaction, particularly in relation to my present Humanist stance. The majority, certainly of the younger generation, have little time for formal religion.
It’s quite obvious to me that traditional Catholicism is well and truly ” on its way out.”
MMM
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Tyrone calling Pat. How are you these days?
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Where do these servers all come from? The ones who are not ordained clergy I mean!
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Ordinary Massgoers (TLM). If you look at the full photoset, the congregation is chiefly young people, including many young men, which is the opposite of NO congregations.
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Gay West End theatrical types no doubt.
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Half the laymen are in copes and a layman in a curious violet gown.
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Ok so I get its good to see young people in church but are these the latin mass / traditional types Whos ego is based on making out they are better than every one else and who want to pretend they are priests?
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The big fat Norbertine abbot is a frequent visitor prancing around in episcopal gear.
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It should be noted that this is a Latin Novus Ordo. Although a Costa Rican priest who mainly offered a Latin Novus Ordo was detained in a psychiatric facility for a time as the local bishops entirely suppressed the traditional Mass and anything traditional like maniple or biretta, this has zero to do with mocking Pope Francis. Some suggested the Latin Novus Ordo as an alternative (like Fr James Martin SJ), although as Fr Varela found out, the Latin Novus Ordo is actually more hazardous for a priest and his career.
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The English Vetus Ordo facing the people (we never cared about material of vestments) would show who was serious.
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The Anglicans sometimes used an English translation of the Vetus Ordo. I don’t think anything of that sort was approved otherwise except between V2 and the New Order in 1969. Croats, at least those with Franciscan priests (Slavonic, but it is understandable if not legible), some north American Indian tribes, China for some time, and other places got an approved translation. The transitional Missal (substantially translated by ’67 depending on the Conference) is likely no longer approved, and that could be ad populum and mostly in English.
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Symmachus,
S. Clement’s Episcopal in Philly still uses the English Missal with minor propers in Latin. I saw their broadcast on Western Christmas. The silent canon broken by the elevation with all its bells and smells was quite eye opening. More interesting was the silent Libera nos. I don’t think I heard any of the classical Anglican prayers used.
Actually there’s an Oxford English Missal Society on Twitter. Ironic that certain Anglicans are preserving the Uetus Ordo.
Other missals include The Anglican, The American, The Altar Missal of the SSJE which is Sarum inclined. A rather favorite of mine is The Priest TO The Altar.
I haven’t even elaborated on the Western Orthodox. Yet!
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