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ONE ASSESSMENT OF JAP JOE.

This is enough to make one’s head spin. In fulfillment of the late Bishop Dunn’s wishes, the Department of Theology and Religion at Durham University has reportedly raised £2.1 million to endow a new Bede Chair in Catholic Theology. The university announcement was made in the post, “Durham Centre for Catholic Studies is UK first” (Durham University News, March 3, 2008). Fr. Michael Brown, a priest of Newcastle upon Tyne, offers a brief synopsis of the news in his post, “Bede chair of Catholic Theology at Durham” (Forest Murmurs, April 24, 2008), and mentions that Fr. Joseph O’Leary was one of four candidates invited to Durham for interviews and to offer a public lecture. As an update to his post, Fr. Brown writes: “I understand that Prof. Ayres got the job.”

OUR JOE

The details concerning each of the four candidates and their respective lectures and positions are derived, according to Fr. Brown, from a post by James Mawdsley, “Church and University: Durham’s New Chair of Theology” (Ecce Mater Tua, April 21, 2008). “As part of the selection process,” says Mawdsley, “yesterday the four candidates for the Bede Chair each gave presentations to a packed room of local clergy, academics, parishioners and students. One candidate had travelled from London, two had flown in from the USA, the fourth from Japan.” The candidate from Japan, of course, was none other than Fr. Joseph O’Leary, the notorious dissident who has insinuated himself into numerous blog discussions under the monaker of “Spirit of Vatican II,” or “Joe O’Leary,” or simply “Fr. Joe.” Mawdsley reports his ‘take’ on the four candidates as follows:

  • Prof. Lewis Ayres — solid and interesting
  • Prof. Christina Beattie — [apparently] the best of the candidates, both in content and communication [but see up-date at the top]
  • Prof. Rev. Paul McPartlan — interesting but his overall point(s) unclear
  • Prof. Rev. Jospeh O’Leary — I think he is theologically dangerous

We certainly concur with his ‘take’ on Fr. O’Leary. Australian blogger John Heard, “Notorious Dissident Priest Father Joseph O’Leary Bound For Durham University’s New Bede Chair in Catholic Theology?” (Dreadnought, April 26, 2008) gives a more detailed report of the history of Fr. O’Leary. He reportedly sent an email to the heads of the Centre for Catholic Studies at Durham University, as well as to the Diocese of Hexham and Newcastle, the Diocese of Westminster, and Catholic theologians, writers and bloggers across the English-speaking world, warning them about O’Leary’s background. Excerpts from Heard’s correspondence:

It was with some alarm that I read that Father Joseph O’Leary was being considered for the new Bede Chair at Durham University. Father O’Leary is well-known, indeed quite notorious, within the online Catholic community:- The Case of Father O’Leary; and- The Perplexing Sayings of Father O’Leary.He is especially infamous for consistently and domineeringly pushing his arguments against Catholic teaching on human sexuality, and denying the historicity of the Resurrection.

… On two occasions I have had cause to report Father O’Leary’s comments to me (on my blog) and about me (on his blog and other blogs) – in relation to the Church’s teaching on human sexuality – to the Cardinal Archbishop of Sydney for further investigation. I can forward the correspondence. Other scholars, bloggers and priests have also apparently reported specific examples of Father O’Leary’s heterodoxy to their local ordinaries. However, I understand that, owing to the details of Father O’Leary’s position in Japan, not much has been done so far.

That would change if Durham and the Centre seriously considered giving Father O’Leary the Bede Chair. He would become a lightening rod for dissent and controversy. Far from presenting the Catholic Church to the secular university, Father O’Leary’s appointment would reward the worst kind of secularist ideas and the people who hold them with the official title ‘Catholic’.

The history of my own interaction with Fr. O’Leary, who was a classmate of mine in graduate school at Duquesne University back in the early 1980s, is reported by Christopher Blosser in “The Perplexing Sayings of Fr. O’Leary” (Against the Grain, August 2, 2005). O’Leary is very bright, learned, and diabolical. He is obsessed with portraying active homosexual relations in a positive light, as reported in “What homosexuals do” (Musings, June 26, 2006) (his combox comments alone are sufficient to indict O’Leary here, not to mention his obscene discussion of the cult of the divine prepuce [foreskin] in another venue). We banned him from the comment boxes on this blog, even though he continued to post by logging onto different computers, as we noted in “Obstinate O’Leary refuses to be banned” (Musings, August 14, 2006). He denies the historicity of the Resurrection, even while cleverly appearing to affirm it in some trans-historical spiritual sense. He buys into the assumptions of the most skeptical traditions of German higher criticism of the Bible. My own critical analysis of his claims to Chalcedonian orthodoxy in his Christology may be found in the following posts:

We hope that Fr. Michael Brown is right and that Fr. O’Leary was not given the Bede Chair in Catholic Theology at the University of Durham. For O’Leary to receive that chair would be a hideous blight upon the future of that venerable institution and a flagrant disregard to all the canons of Catholic theological responsibility. As it is, we continue to be deeply troubled that Fr. O’Leary continues to hold a teaching position in the Department of English Literature at Sophia University in Japan. Fr. Al Kimel justly raises the question “Is the ‘spirit of Vatican II’ Christian” (Pontifications, quoted in Against the Grain, August 2, 2005). His nefarious influence is not only obnoxious. It is doing great harm.

Update 4/29/08

It has been officially confirmed that Professor Lewis Ayres, an English lay Catholic theologian currently teaching at Emory University in Georgia in the USA, has been appointed as the first Bede Chair of Catholic Theology in Durham University. (Courtesy of Volpius Leonius, Diocese of Hexham & Newcastle, United Kingdom)

PAT SAYS

An interesting assessment of Jap Joe obviously form a Conservative position

The two criticisms of Joe are:

1. He disagrees with the teaching of the RCC on human sexuality.

2. He denies the historicity of the Resurrection.

Well, I agree with him on the RCCs teachings on human sexuality.

But I am shocked that a priest of Cork and Ross denies the historicity of the Resurrection and gets away with it

And why is a priest of Cork and Ross, ordained 49 years ago to serve the Faithful of Cork and Ross teaching English Literature in Japan?

How has Jap Joe got away with abandoning his true calling for nearly 50 years?

Is he being paid anything by Cork?

Is he on the priests private health scheme for Cork?

Will he get a priest’s pension from Cork?

I’m also wondering if Joe is gay and actively so?

201 replies on “ONE ASSESSMENT OF JAP JOE.”

Pat, you are onto a story yet untold of this kind of cleric who floats on the surface of the sacerdotal pool hitherfore without challenge……but their private lives whether in Tokyo or ‘fashionable’ Dublin to say nothing of other capitals would be of interest to anyone who contributes to “charity.”

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Still don’t know who Mulvehill is. I was too kind about Cathal Daly, for I had forgotten his role with regards to LGBT rights in Northern Ireland. Just now looking at the Jeff Dudgeon case and reading this from Kieran Rose: https://notchesblog.com/2021/01/26/campaigning-for-lesbian-and-gay-rights-in-ireland-1981-1993/ I am wondering if the Irish bishops have ever apologized (if only on behalf of their predecessors) for behaviour that we now see was grave abuse, and as I wrote to the Irish Times after the NI bishops kicked David Norris when he was down after his case failed in the Supreme Court in 1982, was a graver sin than any conceivable sexual act. As Joe Lee, quoted by Kieran noted, this was going on against the background of the horrible violence in NI. There is need of a purification of memory here. JOL

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Health Insurance is a great track to whether the individual is signed up to “The Borg”…..ie …. Assimilated……and always a paper trail……and subsequent tariffs for such ‘belonging’……

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Also why are the concerns being reported to the bishop of Sydney? Has he incardinated there?
I looked at his home page (on typepad) this afternoon. I would think the reason he didn’t get the job is his total lack of focus, and the multiplicity of subjects he writes about. If there’s one thing the academy values it’s an ability to focus and carry through while having a general mastery of the subject.

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10.52
A fatuous generalising of what the academy likes. The academy is many things and defies such a bland predication.
Far more likely that the campaign referred to was responsible, though from the information available here, and if it is to be believed, such a campaign would border on defamation.

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Guess I should write ‘the point of view on my work as an author’ though my 2015 book with U. of Notre Dame Press comes close to it, categorizing my different interests (literature, philosophy, patristics, Buddhism) as ‘loci’ within a fundamental theology. You guys (or use the other vowel) make me feel guilty for not bearing the heat of the day with the Irish clergy, but both my clerical friends and my relatives, as well as harried academic colleagues, assure me I am doing best in Japan and that I would not have published six substantial books since 2001 if I were in Cork or in Durham. So let me bloom where I’m planted as long as the Lord spares my creaking bones.
And of course to be spared the nastiness of Ire-land in a gentle and civilized society is a blessing. My admired friend Paul Taylor spent a few days here in 2008 (can it be so long?) and reflected ruefully that it was the only time he had seen what real courtesy is, especially on his return to ‘the daily spite of this unmannerly town.’ One thing that is a miracle in Japan is the immediate proximity of clean toilets wherever you go (unlike the dreadful situation in Dublin, London, or Paris). Equally available is respect, restraint, discretion, gentleness, good manners, unassuming politeness, gracious bonhomie, and all the other constituents of civility that make life go smoothly. See my friend Jim Heisig’s reflection on this virtue: https://www.amazon.com/Praise-Civility-James-W-Heisig/dp/1666793841 JOL

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Joe is not actively gay.
His ministry is university based – its not much different to priests who teach in Maynooth, Rome, the US… and good to have a priest mission at the weekends in Japan. C&R used send Diocesan priests on mission to S.America. This is not really any different.
Please stop using the racist word ‘Jap’.
He contributes more to the salary pool than he draws from it.
But being that far away Joe prob missed the circular to not post about you, or to you.

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11.00
If you are speaking literally, if such a circular exists, it would have no standing. A diocesan mandate attempting to forbid people to contact a named individualwould be a breach of human rights.

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10.11
That’s the only ammunition in your arsenal. The widespread occurrence of CSA in the world today outside and apart from church communities hasn’t convinced you to terminate your association with the human race.

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9:00 Take a deep breath, sit down, read your comment out loud and then be aware that the organization you’re talking about has had its treatment of children described as torture.
Now you see what’s wrong with your comment.

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10.56
And yet your involuntary departure from seminary is the context which informs all your comments, those of today being but the most recent. To paraphrase Joe, you won’t find mental or spiritual peace as long as you a oid dealing with it.

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9:31
As it happens I keep banging on about it because y’all are so eager to forget, hence why you hate being reminded.

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10:56 What departure from seminary? 🤣
Talking to you is like stepping into Marat/Sade.

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9:31 Once again struck by the insistence on how common and widespread CSA is. Just like a paedo talking.

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6.20
Scraping the bottom of the barrell. CSA is a detestable crime. And when someone such as you, throws such an accusation around it’s clear the individual cares nothing for real and current victims, (It’s not only a historic phenomenon.) but is prepared to exploit victims’ suffering to deaden their sense of their own inadequacies.

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In the context of sexual abuse and of transnational lines of flight for some of the Rccs
most incorrigible abusers, I find it interesting C&R used to send diocesan priests on a mission to South America. Where in South America?

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Priests such as Jap Joe and the other old farts in the Association of Cranks and Pessimists, really grind my gears.

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The thing about desk priests is that they become institutionalised after many years of parish dodging and it becomes impossible for them to be appointed to a parish.

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11:47pm from reading this blog it seems that some of these priests focus a lot more on Parish dodging than they do on Mickey dodging thus creating major headaches for church hierarchy.

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In 2008, what qualification did James Mawdsley have to evaluated thE theology of Dr O’Leary? Is he the same Fr James Mawdsley who recently separated from FSSP?

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You will be happy to hear that John Heard, a lawyer who sparred with me under the name of Dreadnought, and was influential in delaying the recognition of gay marriage in Australia, has since vehemently denounced and publlicly recanted his then views, much to the chagrin of a former friend and colleague who pushed the young man to make the most horrendous homophobic statements (and who also promoted the fellow who went on to launch the Lefebrvrite website Rorate Caeli, which has huge influence though it seems still to consist in only one man).
Of course I do not deny the historicity of the resurrection. I take my stand on the first written testimony to its historicity, 1 Corinthians 15. You will find my thoughts here: https://josephsoleary.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/04/the_resurrectio.html
You have found your ideal bedfellows today, raging reactionaries and homophobes, but you come 17 years too late. They are no longer around to return your embraces. You are replaying an old, cracked record, and I assure you that there is no profit for you mentally or spiritually in this. I would counsel you to take time off from your idle career as a malicious blogger and study some good theology instead.
JOL

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Dear Joe,
I will allow others to address the things you accuse me of.
I have briefly read your article on the Resurrection. It is very substantial and impressive. I will print it out and study it.

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7.19
Pat, your openness is highly to be commended, a mark of a genuinely spiritual person. Good luck and much blessing with your theological project.

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His piece has too much philosophical preamble. It suggests an old vehicle sluggish and protracted in starting up, and, once precariously idling, with no realistic prospect of travelling far enough.
In a nutshell, it made an unconvincing argument for the objective, historical resurrection of the Christ.

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12.56
Have a look at JO’L’s websites. You are out of your depth attempting a review of his work. You are not in his league.

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Is Joe lonely and with too much time on his hands, hence his incessant “reply guy” responses on the ACP and Pray Tell websites and myriad blogs, and now on here?

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10.56
Puerile means childish, jejune not nourishing. Only someone with your blunt perspective who lacks nuance would react so mindlessly as here, 10.54 and 10.56.

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12.14
Concerning words of Latin derivation in your comment, I stopped counting when I reached double digits.

I’m not a cleric.

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10:53 Those are the kind of affected Latinate insults the clergy are always embarrassing themselves by throwing around on here. I suppose they think it makes them sound educated. In fact both Fowler and Quiller-Couch indicate that good English avoids Romance vocabulary as much as possible.

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12:06 Affected, either way. I expect you’re the priest who calls everything inane. It’s what comes of muttering the Magnificat in Latin.

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12.10
Alas, you don’t know what you are speaking about. Jejune comes from the Latin ieiunio, to fast from food (and in that sense means not nurishing). What a pity for you that you have to rely on a website or the authority of another to translate from Latin.
And peurile is a new word for all of us here. What does it mean?

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12.15
You may suspect to your heart’s content. I am not. In fact, I’m not ordained.

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‘raging reactionaries and homophobes,’
I just spluttered my coffee out.
I see you also didn’t get the email asserting that no cleric reads this blog, much less comments on it.

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We have only two confirmed clerical readers: the one who says he’s tired but keeps going anyway; and Jap Joe.
That’s it. There are no others.

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Oh dear, + Pat, you’re not still pedalling that stuff about a physical, actual, real and bodily resurrection, are you ? I mean, come on, we know that it is simply not possible physically and according to the laws of physics and the universe. I know it’s in the creed and for centuries has been required as a litmus test for being a christian. But, really ?! Have we not got the balls to accept that so much of the stuff that is touted as Christian truth and fact is really story, myth and not actual fact. Yes, the resurrection talks about hope and the future, a new life, a new beginning, being embraced in the life of the creator. But, it is nothing more than a story about a juggling trick with a bag of bones. To quote / misquote + Durham years ago. I just wish Christians would be a bit more insightful and thoughtful, rather than just peddling stupid, impossible, twee and saccharine idiotic stories. Such as virgin birth, Real Presence, heaven and hell etc. Nonsense. All of it. Grow up.

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@3.49 am
But we are all reborn.
Now YOU grow up, because YOU don’t know what YOU don’t know.
Silly man so you are.

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3.49
If you are going to refute the creeds of Christianity, at least don’t misquote or attempt to make them say what they don’t.
About Jesus, Nicea says ‘Resurrexit tertia die.”
About humanity “Expecto/expectamus resurrectionem mortuorum.”
– resurrection of the dead, not of the corpse/body.

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Everything is possible to God.

Yes I do believe in a physical Resurrection and the Real Presence.

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@3:49. “Grow up?” Quite simply, they can’t, ….and I mean “cant” as well. They unthinkingly prefer the myths and fairy tales of religious mythology, just like children waiting for Santa, or the tooth fairy
I like how you describe this blind wishful thinking that permeates all religious thinking: “twee and saccharine idiotic stories.” Saccharine is most expressive. It is that sentimental aspiration for a “happy hereafter” to distract from the reality of life in the here and now,……and getting on with living it to the full, cooperatively and harmoniously for the common good.
Thank you.
MMM

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10.14
To be honest, MMM, all the effort expended by you here suggests that you are not totally convinced by your decision to deny God’s existence, and that it is yourself you seek to persuade. Reread Pascal’s wager. Take the risk. And find peace. Pax.

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@10.14 am MMM
You are another one who doesn’t know just like the other silly one.
There IS a greater power than us and the creator is GOD.
Silly man so you are.

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11.12
1. Your point about veracity requiring distinctiveness is moot.
2. The so-called ‘fall’ is Paul’s contribution to Christian theology. It doesn’t figure in a y of the sayings of the historical Jesus. Jesus’ life, death and resurrection can be explained without reference to Genesis 2-3.

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Of course gods were always dying and rising again in the ANE religions and in fact it was so common that one of the ancient Pagan writers said ‘The way these Christians carry on you would think theirs was the only one to do it’.
1. I can’t see the obsession with the resurrection when it is not distinctive.
2. Christianity does not rise or fall (ha) by the resurrection. The doctrine which makes the whole edifice fall apart when removed, is the Fall, because there is then no reason for the rest of it. Far from being the religion of the rising again, it’s the religion of being a sinner in the hands of an angry, vengeful god.

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10:59
1. I made no mention of veracity. Does the word eisegesis mean anything to you?
2. Irrelevant.

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So let’s get rid of Paul and Genesis.
Brilliant. At least most people make an effort to kid themselves they’re not picking and choosing the bits they fancy. 🤣

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10.49, you have a point.
MMM is a militant atheist, but not in the usual, proslytising way. His militancy is not a sign of self-assurance in non-belief, but, really, nothing more pedestrian than a cry of help: he truly does so want to believe in a supreme being, and his characteristic aggressiveness, smugness, and scorn is, paradoxically, a CHALLENGE to those of us who do believe to reason him out of a very, very uncomfortable space.
He’s … Well, he’s just a child frightened in the dark, and wanting his mummy.

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2.19
An elementary familiarity with comparative religions and with Christian theology would alert you to the fact that Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection may be understood without reference to a historical fall. Jewish interpretations of Genesis before the birth of Christianity are a case in point. Jesus came to preach the Kingdom of God/Heaven, the Synoptic Gospels’ expressions for what the world is like when humans live out the virtues of the Judeo-Christian worldview.

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6.05
Jesus died because his words and actions threatened the social, political and religious status quo. He didn’t want to die, and he hoped he wouldn’t have to in the way he did. He probably reasoned his promoting of the Kingdom of God would have been harmed if he had tried to stay alive then and that by giving his life for what he believed in, the Kingdom of God would have been thereby more certainly established.

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Anon 10:49: Pascal’s Wager? Offering proof for nothing, I think of it as the refuge of cowards!
Perhaps you, like so many previous commentators, think that when I ask believers to provide evidence for God’s existence, I somehow attempt to “prove” God does NOT exist?
Not so!
It is not possible to absolutely prove that God does not exist: nor can it be proven that pink teapots do NOT circle the furthest star visible from earth! Think about that one!
I consistently hold the position of saying that I see no convincing proof. Such proofs as are offered are weak, riddled with inconsistencies, often patently ridiculous, and invariably rely greatly on personal “faith.” Basic knowledge of the social sciences, by contrast, offers much to explain human tendency towards hopeful beliefs.
MMM

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9:00
If you want to consider how useless it is to seek proof of God’s existence, and want to move beyond proof (He doesn’t use the pink teapots image, but he does refer to the rock of Gibraltar in the same context.) there’s a small book by Dermot Lane which you might like: The Experience of God: An Invitation to do Theology.

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3.49

You don’t know much about Physics if you haven’t heard of frequential particle vibration.

Everything that objectively exists comprises particles (protons, neutrons, electrons, atoms, molecules) that vibrate at varying frequencies. Nothing is completely solid: it only appears this way if it vibrates on the same frequency as another. For example, a rock and a human. If the human vibrated at a frequency higher than the rock, he would feel no pain if the rock were to fall on his foot.

Vibrational frequency can sometimes be altered, again for example, when the gaseous element, nitrogen, is cooled to a liquifying degree.

Spirits, too, experience frequential vibration. However, they differ from humans in that they can lower their rate of vibration to make themselves visible in our world. Hence the apparitions at Lourdes, and such places.

Is this how Jesus resurrected? Did he simply lower his frequential vibration post-crucifixion in order to make himself seen by his disciples? Not according to the Gospel. His resurrection was exclusively corporeal. It could not have been otherwise, since, being eternal, God could not die; only his humanity could die. THIS was resurrected.

The corporeality of Jesus’ resurrection was essential for victory over spiritual death: eternal damnation for humans.

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@12:51. Could you please indicate where the Bible explains these matters? I’d really like to provide reliable objective evidence to convince the naysayers who might otherwise regard your comments as utter tosh.

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3.05

The Bible, Kieran, is revelation, not explanation.

Explain what matters? Particle physics? Again, Kieran, the Bible is revelation, not explanation.

You are free to reject it.

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12:51 Love the way you hilariously start talking about physics before leaving physics so far behind that Kansas is going bye bye 😂

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Anon @ 4:01: So because it’s “Revelation” does that mean it needs no explanation,…. even when it’s such a hotchpotch of weird regularly contradictory stories concerning tribal middle eastern male dominated rural people? Is it a case of , don’t question; just shut up and pay up?
Or maybe we should just believe those paragons of knowledge and virtue, the humble holy
ontologically improved clergy of the Holy Catholic Church?

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Billy Mul made some salacious accusations last night against:
Paddy Moran
Paul Taylor
and Dairmuid Martin.
Care to back your accusations up? I think Pat would love to hear all about Diarmuid Martin. It may shine a new light on him.
I would also like to hear more about Billy’s multiple loans of cash that he never repaid back. Who was the one who was robbed Billy? I would also like hear about his antics in Australia. Who broke his little old heart? My guess – it was not a woman. Billy’s life in the priesthood is of equal interest and laid with tales of homo-hypocrisy. It would have helped Eamon Martin’s decision to get rid a lot easier.

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7.57: William Mulvihill has so much free time on his gands that he’s creating mischief. William is not as clean or pure as he presents. Thete are issues he must address….Ad Mai West said of one of her friends….There’s two things I like about you – YOUR FACE!!!

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The destruction caused by Paul Taylor in Rathgar continues. Parish is facing a WRC hearing and possible court appearances. Meanwhile Taylor is still living in Rathgar, awaiting the reconstruction of his new Beechwood house. The “organist” has recently been seen in Rathmines Church, John Hughes had better mind his back.

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Is it true that it was Linus not Peter who was the first bishop of Rome and he was appointed by Saint Paul.

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9.07
No. The first bishop of Rome, in the modern sense of that term was probably Victor (188-198). Monarchical episcopacy developed over a couple of centuries along the lines of the nearest and most obvious model available to Christians around the Mediterranean: the empire.

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Thank you so much for your reply. I may have more puzzling questions to be answered.
Saint peter was never a bishop or a pope but jesus said he was the rock of his church Does that mean that Jesus wants his church leaders to be more like peter in being just ordinary and mature enough to deal with us the ordinary people insteaf of learning flowery language and llegalistic language behind palace like walls which stunts the maturity of learning how to lead us the common folk.

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If Joe doesn’t believe in the resurrection, then he cannot believe in the Real Presence. Why hasn’t this man been laicised at the very least?

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9.38
A non sequitur. It is possible to believe in Jesus’ being seated at his Father’s right hand without his physical body being involved.

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No non-sequitur. The theology of Real Presence expresses the actual corporeality of Jesus in the Eucharist; in other words, his divinity AND the integrity of his physical humanity post-crucifixion. This all is premised on his actual, and physical, resurrection.
There cannot, logically, be denial of Resurrection and acceptance of Real Presence.

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1.06
Not so. The real presence of the Lord is a sacramental and not a physical presence. Were you asleep during sacramental theology lectures. Berengarius made that mistake before you.

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Of course the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is sacramental. What else could it be? The Eucharist IS a sacrament. I mean, seriously? Have you a weakness for stating the obvious?

Jesus’ resurrection was exclusively corporeal, since God himself cannot cease to exist, even for three days.Therefore, Jesus remains eternally human as well as divine. The integrity of the hypostasis of the incarnate Christ cannot be broken.

Where Jesus is present, there, too, is his crucified, resurrected humanity. This, logically, includes his presence in the Eucharist.

If you were taught anything less, you were taught in serious error.

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4.40
Your comment is an amalgam of a circular argument and, on the other, a confusing of categories.
Both of these are visible in the statement “Jesus’ resurrection was exclusively corporeal.” Such an inane comment contradicts the most reliable expressions of biblical anthropology, which in addition to sarx, also include soma and psyche, or which in addition to basar, also includes ruach and nephesh.

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5.21

There is no circular reasoning in that sentence, since there is no attempt to prove the Resurrection with the phrase ‘exclusively corporeal’. Either you did not understand your own words, ‘circular argument’, or you were taking a chance that I shouldn’t understand them. You’ve made a fool of yourself, either way.

There is no confusion of categories in my post, but there is confused pretension in your head.

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5.50
1. The circular argument consists in attempting to prove that Jesus’ resurrection was, not only corporeal but “exlusively corporeal” by arguing that God’s uninterrupted existence relied on Jesus’ resurrection being corporeal.
Before the Incarnation Jesus had no corporeal existence. God’s eternal existence did not require the existence of a corporeal Jesus either before or after the Incarnation.
2. The confusion of categories is present in your obscuring those of time and eternity by claiming a temporal gap to be an i mnterruption of eternity, as if the latter were only a very long, even infinite period of time.
3. Not even the most material proponents of a bodily resurrection claim that it is exclusively corporeal. How could they, since such a bizarre concept would ipso facto deny the eternal existence of Jesus’ soul and spirit.
Anathema sis.

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5.50
No; you said that my statement, ‘Jesus’ resurrection was exclusively corporeal…’ was ‘an amalgam of a CIRCULAR ARGUMENT and, on the other hand, a confusing of categories’, which, clearly, it is not. Did you forget your own words? Or did you just hope that I would?
Again no, I did not confuse time and eternity. The point I was making was that Jesus did not, as it were, take time out from eternity, since, being divine and eternal, he could not cease to be. This point, along with the others I made, clearly went over your head.
My claim, exclusively corporeal resurrection, is just another way of expressing Jesus’ humanity, which, in turn, implicitly allows for absolutely no denial of Jesus’ eternal nature. I’m sorry, but I thought this penny would have dropped more easily for you than any other.

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10.23 is speaking to himself/herself at 5.50 in a convoluted soliloquy where the last state is worse than the first.

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Don’t be ridiculous, Jesus. You know full well the clergy, without exception, don’t believe in either of these things and are mostly down here with me.
I wish you would give someone a private revelation that it’s all over because I get so bored that you’ve got all the fun people and rock stars up there with you.
This week I’ve got a new punishment though. I give them a minor medical condition and let Mother Theresa treat it. The howls of agony as ingrowing toenails turn into suppurating ulcers as a result are quite something!

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Sadly, Sátty, you are quite correct about most of the clergy; one would think they didn’t want me around. (Wicked thought! Must reject it at once!)
Anyhow, how are you, my shining boy? You were the apple of my eye! (Not a word of this to Michael, mind.)
Yes, dear Teresa was quite the stoic when it came to human suffering… other people’s, unfortunately. I couldn’t quite bring myself to forgive her for dying in a comfortable, modern hospital and not on one of those faecal-stained palates she spent her donated millions on. (Forgive that little expression of sarcasm. It’s a sin only when others indulge themselves so.)
Take care, Sátty. And always remember: Jesus still wants you for a sunbeam. It’s yet possible! Well, it’s what the universalists are saying. I don’t know.

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Actually, Jesus, I’ve been meaning to speak to you about Michael. Way too close. All over me. I mean I know you have all the gays and trans people there but it’s too much. I think he might be a hoof man.
Speaking of which, can I borrow Fred Phelps again? Thomas Aquinas is trying to throw his not inconsiderable weight around again, and a lengthy exposition of millennial Calvinism always sends him into a sulk.

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3.02

(Sigh) So you’ve learned about Michael what I’ve known for a very long time. Well, for eternity, as it happens, if Fundamental Theology is a reliable yardstick.

Ever since those biblical authors began describing Michael as a warrior, and artists began painting or sculpting him in imperial roman dress, I’ve had no peace. I mean it. No peace at all. He absolutely loves all that clobber, especially the cingulum (the skirt-like part of a roman soldier’s kit). He has the thighs for it; I willingly concede that. But God! (Whoops! That’s yours truly.) he never takes it off. I think it has feminised him. Made him…soft. Hence your recent discovery.

I’ll have a word. Set him straight. (No pun intended.)

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Jesus at 5:13 That’s revealing – he wears different clobber for you. He’s much more Village People around me.
But please, if the harassment doesn’t stop I’ll have to go to HR and you know what happened the last time…

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9:38am. Dear Jesus, with the greatest of respect to you, most of the time those clerical fellas down here don’t even laicise abusers of children, adults or even priests that stalk parishioners for various self interested motives including chips, fancy clothes, money & tablets etc.

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3.55

No, they don’t, do they? More’s the wonder; more’s the deep pity. It is why my disciples are disproportionately experiencing the agony of crucifixion over the joy of resurrection.

But take heart: I am, in the Baptist’s words, with ‘winnowing fork’ and am clearing the ‘threshing floor’. I am making all things new.

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But DEACON STEPHEN WILSON was present. He was seated at table Number 8 at the reception afterwards.

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Hopefully Deacon Wilson will not become too tipsy at the reception or take a short drive down to see Sean Jones in Kerry. Pat are you at the reception?

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Stephen Wilson refused to go to Kevin Connolly’s ordination over the violent breakup with John Harney. Harney works in Soho as a financial broker and LGBTQ advocate

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Most of them wearing masks – a balaclava would be more fitting for a few of them.

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Deacon Stephen Wilson was only Deacon tonight and he is being ordained at the end of June but no exact date was given

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All the clergy wearing the masks during the ordination Mass will have taken them off when eating and drinking at the reception afterwards. Just as well the virus switches on and off depending on whether or not you’re eating.

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9:40am that’s all they’d have needed & to repeat Clock Leigh episode there’d be another bunch of “friends” of Fr Ger gathered outside the Church to “support” him. But what you see is what you get with Ger & his mob. Carey’s mob are far more “subtle” & deadlier – that’s why he lasted over 3 decades in Ennis.

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12:19 Scary to think things so rough in Killaloe that they had to summon the Tina woman to the Bishops office in case Yvonne would get clocked in Clock Leigh by Fr Ger fans.

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@10:43 Starting up again are ya? No sign of your Kingpin boss in Castleconnell. Is he taking refuge in another vulnerable woman’s house or has he checked himself into a treatment centre for his many issues?

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3:48pm Fr Ger won’t have checked himself in anywhere – first of all, he clearly couldn’t be trusted to keep his word & self-check himself anywhere & secondly, he will never, ever in any circumstances be footing the bill himself. So unless his babysitters Fintan & Cloe packed his nappy bag & dummy & filled up a nice big warm bottle for him, he’s still very much about.

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Which really doesn’t square with the bodily ascension or the assumption. Didn’t think that out very well, did you?

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start of quote Pertinacious Papist
So what is it, exactly, you’re trying to say here?
Posted by: Pertinacious Papist | May 14, 2006 at 05:42 AM end of quote
Alvin he say:
The point of Jesus’ resurrection is that ascending, he distributed gifts, which aren’t vetoable by the hierarchy. Those who deny this Body are dead on their feet as St Paul says. It’s got nothing to do with transubstantiation. The Kingdom i.e economy is how we trade with each other in those talents. God foresees that that kind of integrity is the thing that will see us through what lies ahead of each of us which will be tougher than we had faced yet. The OT charitable law and the prophets and everything in Jesus’, James’, Paul’s words dig into these themes. Many pious people before Christ understood all this well. Habitual mystical “eucharist” sloganeering is a red herring.
Mine is a better “democratic hermeneusis”. You are confusing us with those straw men set up by Schillebeeckx et al. Were the Vat II “Documents” written by the Joysian school? There is nothing wrong with tremors around the period of Mt 27-28 or the gospel & epistle harmonies. You sound like you think it is suspicious that Scriptures have meanings as well as words, or words as well as meanings? You need to return to your cud chewing and make sure you do it 32 times!

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These priests appear to be a lazy and self indulgent bunch – no wonder they are so keen to have all these middle class professionals out on early retirement doing their accounts & out & about slandering at will on their behalf etc., to keep the show on the road. We will see more of these so called pastoral hoods running the RCC going forward. Suits the likes of the Jap Joes as it leaves them free to do as they please and give nothing back to the parishes that educated them here in Ireland.

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12:10pm I don’t exactly do titles, but in this context, I’d probably be up there at Papal level in my humble opinion!! 🤣🤣🤣

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5 59 Typical of clerical dysfunction and disordered personality. Actually I love it on the days you comment here so repetitively, in fact I love anything that makes the unholy Roman church and its grifting, kiddy-fiddling clergy look bad. Gotta get the message out there.

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Darcy’s up to his tricks again. He was motoring around Enniskillen in the Merc yesterday, to the Ardhowen theatre to be exact, to hijack the launch of the latest CD by the singing nuns. He was going around telling anyone who would listen that The Guardian is desperate to interview him and run a profile.

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I’m always surprised that Fr Darcy isn’t a bigger cheese in the ACP. Their liberal theology and playing to the gallery and generally moany atmosphere would seem a perfect match for him, but he seems to keep his distance. Maybe he’s just not a committee man, and like “Dr” Ian Paisley was, is only interested in something if he can be the head of it.

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11:53am any news back from the Daniel O’Donnell cruise or are some of them still all at sea?

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11:53am he’s probably auditioning for Tokyo Drift motoring around Enniskillen in his Merc. Another tidbit for his forthcoming media interview perhaps.

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2:21pm they are not all gay it seems, some hetero, a few have their greedy mitts in the pick & mix.

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3:42 and 4:31 You haven’t mixed much in ‘trad’circles- the only ones not eyeing up the servers are chatting with them on Grindr already.

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6.17pm Scottish gay ex-Trad alert. Must I go through the long list of blog stars again? Not a Trad among them.

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Nearly all of the scandal creating clericals gays featured or mentioned on this blog, are standard diocesan priests perhaps ordained out of desperation for labourers in the field and in hope they wouldn’t create scandal, or perhaps the authorities want priests as dishonest as them. Traditional seminaries are over-subscribed so they can pick and choose, and sexually voracious gays or straights aren’t chosen (although a certain American sede seminary has an issue with the latter as evidenced by some of its nuns). Perhaps it’s more about the standard sex that creates big families, or its devotion, politics, or whatever. Faith is about many things. Anyhow an overrepresentation of spiritually and sexually dysfunctional, immoral men has long plagued Latin Catholicism, so flinging stones hither and tither is silly.

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Is Killaloe a poor diocese with No diocesan vestments or even they could have same stoles.
Even the MC was in black when he should wear purple.
First holy Mass tonight at 7.30pm
Bishop Fintan loses two clergy but gains one.

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Ah but they’ve gained 24 pastoral workers, who’ll shortly be demanding ordination ceremonies for themselves.

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1:12pm demanding, well heeled pastoral laity are the future of the RCC. Fintan is a leading light & voice in this regard.

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Yes, priests are old hat now. Fitan name checked the pastoral workers during his ordination homily. Why bother going through all the aggro and head melting that goes on in Maynooth when you can do an evening class in Stab City and then get to run a parish as a pastoral worker, working out of a presbytery, like that butch English nun in C&R.

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2:08 Can’t wait. Then when y’all die off we can have a sensible conversation and actually implement Vatican 2.

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@2:20pm
What parts of Vatican II? Please cite references to the texts, not the vague Spirit of Vatican II crap that boomers come out with.

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3:45 The bit in Lumen Gentium which says the faithful should be consulted before papal encyclicals are promulgated, for a start. Oh, and the bit in Sacrosanctum Concilium where lay people give homilies.

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@12.56 It was shocking to watch how disorganised it came across watching online. The MC wore black and seemed to not know what was going on and the clergy looked shabby, without Diocesan vestments. I wish Fr Autun every blessing and good wish and look forward to his first holy Mass this evening.

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2:08pm between cutting their teeth in In Stab City & Clock Lee, the new lay pastorals must be very assertive altogether. Pass the popcorn 🍿

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3:42 you will find real people are used to dealing with difficult situations and working with other people, and not hiding in the presbytery whinging that they’re too good for their parish.

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7:12pm In RCC Mafia Speak, terms such as dealing with “difficult situations” & “working with other people” has an entirely different & uniquely Cathbot meaning to the norm. You are reminded that this blog developed from the necessity to counteract & challenge all manner of RCC related abuse covered up by complicit RCC members & to expose ongoing censorship, corruption, abuse & coverup.

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12:56pm maybe they are like their own Fr Ger, tight as a ducks arse. One would think that all those priests ordained for years would have a set of appropriate vestments at hand for the various occasions. They do request money for these items and most parishes have old ladies that make them but maybe the Covid got some of them so that’s why the lads not so well turned out. Ger & Jerry still on payroll & perks & therapy costs no doubt – bet Fintan wishes that Japan or indeed anywhere would take them like Jap Joe has been.

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They should give Killaloe those hideous pagan chasubles that were commissioned for the unpopular papal visit.

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No, not an obsession with dressing up but just dressing correctly. Killaloe priests dress badly.

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There is a diocesan stole from the 90s and Willie Walsh was the only one to wear it. The stole matches the chasuble from Willie’s episcopal ordination. Sad that Willie wasn’t on the altar concelebrating but that may have been his choice. Willie and Antun aren’t that close or friendly in fairness but he is still a bishop emeritus. An MC can only vest in a purple cassock if they are a Monsignor or a Chapter Canon. Only exception is supposed to be the papal household.

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Not true about the purple. Members of a bishop’s household may wear it in choir. The lay MC in Westminster Cathedral wears purple.

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7.11
Totally wrong anyone can vest in Purple if he or she is serving a Archbishop or Bishop that includes Lay MC’s as well.
It is up to the Archbishop or Bishop but they likely not wanting to pay for it.
Poor Father Mc Hugh had to wear Black always.Some dioceses do not even have a Cathedral chapter as some Bishop’s do not want them so they have consulters instead.

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Regardless of what colour the MC wore, (he bumbled his way through) but the attire of the Killaloe priests was cat and in dire need of attention. Need to call in the fashion brigade quick. Gok wan???

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There is a diocesan stole from the 90s and Willie Walsh was the only one to wear it. The stole matches the chasuble from Willie’s episcopal ordination. Sad that Willie wasn’t on the altar concelebrating but that may have been his choice. Willie and Antun aren’t that close or friendly in fairness but he is still a bishop emeritus. An MC can only vest in a purple cassock if they are a Monsignor or a Chapter Canon. Only exception is supposed to be the papal household.

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What is so awful about parishes that diocesan priests (who are supposedly ordained for parish service) will do anything to avoid parish work by getting a desk job?

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1.10: What an apocalyptic overstatement! The number of desk priests is miniscule. Can you produce evidence of your mighty false claim? Come on…..Prove your claim. You’re jumping on a popular – of lying – but I am quite certain that you’ll be unable to validate your “lies” with real evidence.

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Fr Magee is the press officer desk priest, and Fr Eugene O’Hagan is one of the Chancery priests. There have always been a good number of D&C priests in schools and in Maynooth too.

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Clogher has three: Connolly, McGuinness and Hughes. Cloyne has half a dozen, including Joe Murphy and Michael Crotty. The famous Killaloe has at least two: Horgan in the Washington nunciature and the President of St Flannan’s College.

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Fr Bartlett was the doyen of desk priests until he got the soft number in the town with three curates in a oarish only a few streets wide.

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D&C has at least 6 desk priests. Off the top of my head there’s Frs Grant, Fox, the PR one, two in the Chancery and Whyte.

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7:45
‘mighty false claim’
Not as false as your claim that the question you refer to was claiming anything. 🤣

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To think it’s still the afternoon here in dull old Ireland and it’s Compline time in exciting Tokyo. Say a prayer for us, Joe!

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Joe’s snattering and snoring in his paper walled house, presumably oblivious to the uproar his fiery comments have caused.

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2:50, It might be how he thinks that reports of clerics and superiors going to gay bathhouses are not real scandals but “pharasaic”. I don’t know a lot of straight, chaste clergymen who are willing to downplay the idea of a Trappist monk, later an abbot, rawdogging a fellow priest (and religious in formation) in monastic buildings. One might legitimately wonder about the personal sexual ethics of a cleric who doesn’t find this morally repugnant. 🤷‍♂️

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I didn’t know that the priest was a monk in formation in the abbey. That makes it even worse (though Joe seems to think it doesn’t matter as it only involved adults).

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There’s fierce jealousy of JJ being expressed here, though it is understandable. Who wouldn’t want nearly two decades of study in Maynooth, Rome and Paris, followed by a 50-year, term-time only, sinecure in Tokyo, living independently and far away from cranky PPs, bossy boots nuns and with no sick calls or having to make small talk with farmers and shop girls with dissapointingly low levels of Joycean knowledge?

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5.02
I’m sure your kind of begrudgery isn’t exclusive to Ireland. Hopefully, JO’L will have enjoyed every minute of his life.

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Instead of playing with balls, he needs to focus on his priests using theirs with their boyfriends.
That one that lives with his boyfriend gets away with murder, and is as smug as the day is long.

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Because it’s not sex they’re primarily obsessed with (although the celibacy thing attracts men with sexual problems). The obsession is either power or performance. If you’re psychopathic enough, you want the power or to soothe your fractured personality and the rules on sex don’t even enter your thoughts because you think everyone is pretending.

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Some time ago, at an outdoor Mass, a priest made noise with ciboria and chalices. A bishop who figures on this blog was heard to exclaim “Jesus is hurting.” The bishop hadn’t learned how to differentiate between sacramental prefesence and physical presence. At best, his views are not Catholic, at worst, they are pure unadulterated heresy. He considers himself orthodox.

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Just a thought. Why cant individuals and groups formally excommunicate the church. Its a smoke and mirror exercise but it could make a point

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Why are the church people not excommunicated who by their cover ups and abuse caused abused victims to commit suicide . They excommunicate divorced couples and users of church banned contraceptives.

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Stay sat out, in your pew, like we used to. Compulsory “communion” was the bad idea of the fake anti-Bolshevist.

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Pat, you should do a blog on the shameful lifestyle of some priests. My wife and I live in East Tyrone, and have become increasingly repulsed with the arrogance displayed by priests in several parishes in our locality. Eg. If one PP is a short drive away (but counts it his day off) he declines to meet the pastoral needs of a bereaved family; choosing to pass it on to other PEs. High lifestyles are often not matched by the characters of the individuals.
Should priests be interfering in staff rooms businesses, or those of schools? I would argue not. Another PP says “We are made in the image and likeness of God”. This is true, but then he proceeds to promote a lifestyle offensive to God. What a hypocrite, with an immensely dense intellect. We also have one or two die-hards in Tyrone that think it is impossible to reach Heaven without being laiden in lace and tossled vestments!
Then the party animal priests. Well, Pat, those speak for themselves and will reap what they sow. We hear them, see them from time to time, then comes their splendid isolation for a while to cool things down.
Indeed I believe this diocese also has an abundance of desk priests. What do they be doing? Are they so inadequate that they hide? Surely the leadership in Ireland can see that the ‘faithful’ in Ireland are faithful to Christ forever, not the Irish Catholic Church. For how much longer can our great leaders run?

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I presume Victory means the verbal abuse to the priest and damage within the church which are being treates as a hate crime. Three juveniles have beeen charged according to the Belfast Telegraph.
Pax
Garngad Lad

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If it hadn’t been for Jap-Eye Joe
I’d been married long time ago
Where did you come from, where did you go?
Where did you come from, Jap-Eye Joe?

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